Critiquing Group

[DaveD]

I've been in plenty of writing circles/groups to get my work critiqued, but I've never been quite happy with the result.

Every group (and posting online) seems to have many of the same problems:

1) Not enough screenwriters- Most of the writing groups I've been in have been across all formats because there simply aren't enough screenwriters dedicated to making their scripts better (clearly I have never lived in LA). While I like getting opinions from non-screenwriters (I send the second draft of everything I write to my sister and my girlfriend) to really get surgical feedback experienced screenwriters are required. Lack of experience is a major issue for the group I'm involved in now (as well as many others). I've finally found a group solely for screenwriting and almost all the participants are newbies. I enjoy teaching the craft to newcomers but again, experienced screenwriters are the only people who can find or suggest fixes for certain flaws.

2) Nothing is read aloud- Not to the writer, not to the reader. If you're planning to sell it, it has to read well, but I find it's enormously helpful to just have some people do a cold read. They don't have to be great actors, but it is more beneficial if the readers put some effort into it. Additionally, as a stand up I rely heavily on the audience's energy as a gauge of what jokes work and which need to be tuned or thrown out. It not only makes my act better, it makes me a better comedian.

3) People are afraid to be critical- Or they're critical just to be critical, but mostly the former. I have had my work read dozens, perhaps hundreds of times and have probably only had a handful of negative comments beyond formatting or typos. I'd like to think I'm a little better than average, but I'm certainly no where near that good. I understand the need to be polite- I once read a screenplay that was so bad I felt physically sick, yet when the writer turned to me and asked me what I thought, the first thing I said to him was a generic platitude (the hallmark of the writing group!). I did however go on to give him about 40 things to address on the first 3 pages. Call me desensitized to criticism from my time in stand up, but I'm really looking for people to tear my work apart in constructive and helpful ways, and I imagine many other writers aren't looking for a pat on the ass when they put their work out there.




So here is what I'm proposing-
It's so simple I can't believe I never thought of it before. We put together an online writing circle- but instead of emailing stuff around, which misses some major key components (reading aloud and a real time discussion with a group about the work [you simply can't recreate this energy in text]) we meet live to read and discuss each screenplay. We may be able to do this using skype (I don't know how many people they allow to talk at once, but it is at least 3) or, hell, find a chat room with voice chat.

The essentials:
-We agree we can be tactful, but need to be constructively critical. If we're serious about improving our work, someone who wants to be critical just for jollies would not really fit in.
-We agree that each project is split into parts and read aloud. Additionally that the readers should do their best with their parts even if they are not at all actors.

The Negotiables:
-Since we'll go through work pretty slowly, I'd suggest a ~2 hour meeting.
-It would make the most sense to try to finish scripts each meeting instead of trying to read a few pages from everyone- so we could knock out a single feature of a few shorts a meeting and just set up a queue of everyone's work waiting to be critiqued.
-A meeting every other week seems like a solid pace, but we could do more if the interest was there.
-I think having an "attendance policy" is silly, but it would make sense to have a rule that you need to attend to have your work move up in the queue.
-I think a group of at least 4 and no more than 8 would work best. We could split off into other groups (by genre?) if there is enough interest.
-For many reasons which are obvious and I'm not going to bother reciting, I think this should be screenplays and screenplay type (plays, audio dramas, etc) projects only.
-I think screenwriters of any experience level should be welcome. We'll probably attract more experienced writers, though.
-No pirates.



OK, sorry for the length. I guess I got excited. Thoughts? Interested? Did I forget something?

 

[Eximious]

Very sensible proposal, but it would take some work to make it happen here. You might have better luck at a more active screenwriting forum (like DoneDealPro). I would be interested in participating, but a couple of other people would be needed to make it work well.

However, I disagree with reading scripts aloud, especially since we'd be doing this online. Now if we were aspiring directors, I could see the value of a good table read, but that's a different focus. It's so much faster to read than to speak. And as writers, if our work is being read aloud, it has already vanquished the key gatekeepers.

I would be willing to discuss scripts via Skype or voice chat, but I would be just as comfortable mashing away on my keyboard. Keep in mind that with everyone's schedule and different time zones here, finding a two-hour span that works for all participants can be tricky. That's the beauty of a message board: it's asynchronous. We can compose and post our thoughts as our individual schedules allow.

I haven't been very active here for some time due to other happenings in the universe, but I do have some time to devote to writing now (for the foreseeable future) if anyone is serious about making this happen.

 

[john threat]

im interested. i read lots of scripts and give feedback and i write scripts. I need feed back - my friends love me and love my stuff since they get me. Some are harder, but still they know me - so they still get the parts that we both take for granted we know what i am trying to express.

 

[David W. Richardson]

I've always been hesitant to have my writing critiqued by writers. There are several reasons for this...

1. It's only human to think "Well, this is how I would do it..." Every writer has their own preference. I know it's hard for me to critique someone else's writing -- if it's GOOD. It's easy to critique bad writing, but good writing is harder. It's hard for me to avoid the temptation to want to change things to something more like the way I would have written it.

2. Anytime you get a random group of people together, even writers, you have to deal with the fact that some are good writers and some are not. So whose opinion do you value? And what makes that person's opinion more valuable than your own?

3. Asking other screenwriters to critique your screenplay is like asking advice from your competitors. If you ran a coffee shop, would you go around asking the owners of all the other coffee shops in your area for advice on how to make your coffee shop better?

Most of the time, when I ask someone to critique my work, I'm really just looking for positive reinforcement. If I really want to know how to improve my own writing, then I read and study the writing of others. I've just never gotten much good out of a "Tell me how to make it better" situation. But hey, that's just me.

 

[David W. Richardson]

im interested. i read lots of scripts and give feedback and i write scripts. I need feed back - my friends love me and love my stuff since they get me. Some are harder, but still they know me - so they still get the parts that we both take for granted we know what i am trying to express.

That's the problem with having friends read your stuff -- they filter it all through their knowledge of you and your personality. On the one hand, maybe they like it because they like you. Or maybe they just tell you they like it so they don't hurt your feelings. You'll never really know.

Dov Simens had some good advice about script coverage. He said when you let someone read a script, don't tell them you wrote it. Put a fake name on the script, and tell them you're considering whether or not to option it, and would appreciate their input. This way they have no vested interest in telling you what they think you want to hear, and are more likely to give you a completely honest answer. I like that idea.

 

[David W. Richardson]

Final thought.....if you want to have a critiquing group, find a way that the scripts can be submitted anonymously, so that no one knows who wrote the script they're critiquing. Maybe that would work.

 

[john threat]

i see no downside here

 

[DaveD]

However, I disagree with reading scripts aloud, especially since we'd be doing this online. Now if we were aspiring directors, I could see the value of a good table read, but that's a different focus. It's so much faster to read than to speak. And as writers, if our work is being read aloud, it has already vanquished the key gatekeepers.

Unfortunately that is the whole idea- to see what works and doesn't work by hearing your script read. It won't just make your script better while being read aloud it will also be better for any readers that it finds itself in front of. Coverage has an important place and is enormously useful, but there are plenty of places to get your script reviewed (such as here, trigger street, etc). If you've never had it done, trust me- it's enormously helpful (a singular experience and occasionally uncomfortable, but helpful). It's also the one thing I'm completely determined to incorporate.

Final thought.....if you want to have a critiquing group, find a way that the scripts can be submitted anonymously, so that no one knows who wrote the script they're critiquing. Maybe that would work.

That is a terrific idea. Consider it implemented.


Honestly I was a little surprised at the lack of interest over the last week here, but I've pulled some people from other forums and writers I know personally and the idea has started to get some real steam. The only thing that (I think) has been added is that we're looking at 7pm (est) on Sundays to start.

I'll send out messages today or tomorrow to those interested and we'll start getting stuff organized. Until then I'll try to drum up interest in other places.

 

[Eximious]

I've always been hesitant to have my writing critiqued by writers. There are several reasons for this...

1. It's only human to think "Well, this is how I would do it..." Every writer has their own preference. I know it's hard for me to critique someone else's writing -- if it's GOOD. It's easy to critique bad writing, but good writing is harder. It's hard for me to avoid the temptation to want to change things to something more like the way I would have written it.

This is easily the biggest problem I've seen in writing seminars (for screen and print) too. But mature writers have, in my experience, stepped up to the plate and offered solid feedback. Neophytes, on the other hand, might simply try to protect their egos or be unable to provide a cogent critique.

2. Anytime you get a random group of people together, even writers, you have to deal with the fact that some are good writers and some are not. So whose opinion do you value? And what makes that person's opinion more valuable than your own?

Indeed, but you can usually glean a great deal of information from the feedback that each person provides. An outsider's viewpoint is useful not because it is necessarily "better," but because it is different. What's one of the first thing screenwriters are taught? "Don't be afraid to kill off your (literary) babies." But how often do we still get attached to those little ideas that actually don't help the entire story? How often do directors get attached to that one incredible shot that doesn't help the whole? Other writers can help us identify our "babies" and improve our works in other ways.

3. Asking other screenwriters to critique your screenplay is like asking advice from your competitors. If you ran a coffee shop, would you go around asking the owners of all the other coffee shops in your area for advice on how to make your coffee shop better?

True, but we're not really direct competitors, are we? If we're producing our own stuff, that's great. If we're writing on assignment, we're set. Even if we're writing specs, I'd argue that the gauntlet of the industry is our true competition.

Most of the time, when I ask someone to critique my work, I'm really just looking for positive reinforcement. If I really want to know how to improve my own writing, then I read and study the writing of others. I've just never gotten much good out of a "Tell me how to make it better" situation. But hey, that's just me.

I agree with you here too. We always like positive feedback. But I have to admit that I've had a few good instructors over the years. Southern novelist Padgett Powell comes to mind. These writers have almost always furnished me with valuable feedback--both in what's working and what's not.

Look, I'm not saying this group would be effective. It might crash and burn. But it might not.

 

[Eximious]

Unfortunately that is the whole idea- to see what works and doesn't work by hearing your script read. It won't just make your script better while being read aloud it will also be better for any readers that it finds itself in front of. Coverage has an important place and is enormously useful, but there are plenty of places to get your script reviewed (such as here, trigger street, etc). If you've never had it done, trust me- it's enormously helpful (a singular experience and occasionally uncomfortable, but helpful). It's also the one thing I'm completely determined to incorporate.

Maybe I've misinterpreted the purpose of this group. You want to assemble a team of writers to read scripts aloud but not provide subsequent analysis? Or is the group reading the scripts aloud and then discussing? Triggerstreet, DDP and elsewhere are fine for soliciting feedback, but DVXuser does not have a great track record of doing so. Creating a workshop-style group here would be novel in itself.

I've been part of workshops that do read works aloud, but with representative selections, not entire submissions. From Faulknerian stream-of-consciousness to accent-heavy historical fiction, it can be fun and insightful. I wish the group the best of luck.

 

[DaveD]

Maybe I've misinterpreted the purpose of this group. You want to assemble a team of writers to read scripts aloud but not provide subsequent analysis? Or is the group reading the scripts aloud and then discussing? Triggerstreet, DDP and elsewhere are fine for soliciting feedback, but DVXuser does not have a great track record of doing so. Creating a workshop-style group here would be novel in itself.

It would be reading aloud and then discussing/critiquing. It certainly wouldn't be limited to DVXuser- so I was trying to say that the niche would be reading aloud.