Crediting an actor as a Producer as well?

[Martay]

Let me ask you thin: how would you feel if the actor calls the distributor of your movie and says, "I never got paid a dime, and I'm one of the producers of the movie -- just look at the credits..." ? Tell me how would you feel when the distributor calls you and tells you, "is that true?"

I wouldn't feel a thing. I'd laugh and point the distributor to the contract that states EXACTLY what they are entitled to. And then call the actor and say, "what the hell are you doing?"

To me, this isn't an issue. The distributor could care way less if he gets that call because that's YOUR problem if you haven't paid everyone correctly...not theirs.

However, if you're saying that the paperwork is not correct on the production...that's a whole other issue.

-M

 

[grinner]

Nobody works on movies for credits. Credits are just what are offered when money is not available. The experience is what is in it for those who elect to work for free and they don't expect whomever they tell that experience to to go watching movie credits for their name. Credits were created for the mothers of those who worked on the film and nothing else.
Look mom, my name. I promise she is the only one who cares.
To the OT's question, adding something like PA would not help those bragging rights for em and throwing down a title like producer may subtract from the lime light of the actual producer. Call him way groovy hard working dude int he credits. I've certrainly gotten creative with titles in credits before. can be fun sometimes.

 

[Chris Santucci]

Well, Chris, I think we agree, ironically; we're just saying it from different perspectives.

Possibly...

Yes, a producer isn't supposed to direct the movie. So, give him credit for putting up the money, namely: PRODUCER!

Again, there's some grey area there. On low budget Indies, you might have 2 people who actually ARE producers or who are actually producing, and a half-dozen other people who are given producer credits because they just helped produce the film. Producers sometimes have a hand in making directorial decisions. That's not uncommon at all. Smart producers working with limited resources will not think twice about fudging the credits in order to get the film made.

You want to give credit to an actor because of a favor? Why not give the actor director credit then if he or she does you a favor too?

It's not so much about "favors" as it is about making the film possible. The definition of "producer" on films isn't necessarily written in stone. You can't apply the rationale for giving producer credits to actors to the director role, even though it's not uncommon for directors to give co-director credits to a crew member who fell into that role.

Let me ask you thin: how would you feel if the actor calls the distributor of your movie and says, "I never got paid a dime, and I'm one of the producers of the movie -- just look at the credits..." ? Tell me how would you feel when the distributor calls you and tells you, "is that true?"

The actor couldn't call the distributor because it states clearly in the deal memo that the actor signed that they have no claim to any revenues derived from the sale of the film. Same goes for the crew.

.

 

[filmman]

Maybe I'm trying to hold back the tide, Adam

Chris -- you're right, the contracts better state such points; otherwise that producer credit may become an issue -- especially with no budget movies.

Reading back this thread sounds like I'm paranoid. LOL

 

[taormina]

Maybe I'm trying to hold back the tide, Adam

Chris -- you're right, the contracts better state such points; otherwise that producer credit may become an issue -- especially with no budget movies.

Reading back this thread sounds like I'm paranoid. LOL

You are paranoid, buddy

It's okay.

 

[JonathanLB]

What I have issues with are people not knowing their limitations. If you have money and are intent on making a movie, and you have zero experience in filmmaking, it's a lot smarter to just hire people who know what they're doing and stay out of the way. You can easily call yourself a producer and who knows, you might end up being a producer on a good film rather than a writer/director of a piece of crap.

Yes, this is one of the keys to making good films. It didn't take me long at all to understand how to make professional work when I got down to Hollywood. I realized, ok, if I hire a really good DP, and I hire a professional crew around him / me, and I have a good concept or story, and a good editor, then I'm going to have a good project. Of course projects I shot in the past where I was the camera guy / director / whatever were crappy, because I'm not a shooter, and haven't ever wanted to be. Too many people try to do everything themselves and their work turns out to be terrible because of it. I know I'm not a camera guy, and I know I can't light a scene, and I know there are better editors out there. But I believe as the guy who puts the project together, and as a writer, I can make better work than most people out there. That's my role. Not as one of the technical guys. That being said I know my equipment, and I know how to put it all together, take it all down, change settings on the camera, load P2 footage into the computer, run my editing suite, etc. I just am not a total expert at any of it, I'm competent at all of it so I can assist when needed but just play more of an advisory role.

 

[Chris Santucci]

Too many people try to do everything themselves and their work turns out to be terrible because of it. I know I'm not a camera guy, and I know I can't light a scene, and I know there are better editors out there. But I believe as the guy who puts the project together, and as a writer, I can make better work than most people out there. That's my role. Not as one of the technical guys.

Smart people know their limitations and they hire people who know how to do the stuff they aren't adept at. More often than not, when hopeful filmmakers set out to make a film, for some reason they believe they themselves need to write the script, which is ludicrous in my opinion. It takes years to become adept at screenwriting and there ARE people out there who eat, breath, sleep, and crap screenwriting who are 10 times better at it than Joe Schmoe who thinks he's going to be the next Steven Soderbergh when he's never even written a script before.

It's like getting on a motorcycle when you've never ridden one before and driving straight into a tree or a wall.

Sure you can multi-task when you have to if you have the skills, but when it comes to the crucial elements of the film like the script, directing, shooting, and sound, you cannot screw around.

When it comes to technical stuff, there's always someone who's better, but when you have a low budget, you have to determine what you have to pay for and work from there.

.

 

[JonathanLB]

Smart people know their limitations and they hire people who know how to do the stuff they aren't adept at. More often than not, when hopeful filmmakers set out to make a film, for some reason they believe they themselves need to write the script, which is ludicrous in my opinion. It takes years to become adept at screenwriting and there ARE people out there who eat, breath, sleep, and crap screenwriting who are 10 times better at it than Joe Schmoe who thinks he's going to be the next Steven Soderbergh when he's never even written a script before.

It's like getting on a motorcycle when you've never ridden one before and driving straight into a tree or a wall.

Sure you can multi-task when you have to if you have the skills, but when it comes to the crucial elements of the film like the script, directing, shooting, and sound, you cannot screw around.

When it comes to technical stuff, there's always someone who's better, but when you have a low budget, you have to determine what you have to pay for and work from there.

.

So true. I mean sometimes I've been certain roles not because I'm good at them, but because I only have the money to spend on so many crew members or so much on the shoot, basically, and I have to know where to skimp and where that is ok. It can be one of the hardest things of low budget filmmaking. It's not like ok you get everything you want, just pick from these people who are very good to the best at what they do. No it's more like, ok I have the money to pay for a really good DP, but I can't afford a really good gaffer so I have to get someone who is competent and good for the price. With my music video Winded, I spent a lot of cash, especially for a one-day shoot, but ultimately I had no more money to spend on wardrobe and production design. I felt that I could get by without these two elements, because I had a good hair and makeup artist who did a fantastic job (especially for what I paid, wow), and I asked the actor and actress to bring numerous changes of clothing. They brought some great options and I was really happy with what we put them in for the most part. Was it perfect? No, it wasn't. A professional wardrobe person would have done a better job and it would have made a very slight different, but for the money it wouldn't have been worth it for me. The production design, which is usually essential (one of the things I consider really important), was not necessary on this because the studio where we shot had a ton of production designed sets already, they were bare bones but in a few cases we didn't have any wide shots, all we needed was a bed with sheets, and in the other cases like with a bar, I just had to bring like a peanut bowl, booze for the background, and bar glasses, all of which I owned. So I felt that ultimately paying for a production designer, while it would have been awesome not to have to worry about that stuff, was something I could skimp on. Had I skimped instead on the lighting budget, or any other area of the crew, I would have been in bad shape.

On this short film I'm shooting I am not hiring a makeup artist, which is also kind of a curious decision at first. But we have someone who can help do touchup for makeup, first of all, and second we have a lot of tiny roles, with 1-2 lines each, the actors need to show up screen ready basically. Minor touchups only. We're going over how people are supposed to look before we shoot. We have a wardrobe lady this time, but it's not a big deal, she's more there to give advice to the actors before the shoot. And I may even skimp on a 1st A.D. for both days, I may just hire the AD for the first day because the second day involves only two actors and I have more of a need to keep the crew tiny than to have an AD there.

I totally agree about the screenplay issue, I mean I write my own stuff because it's very important to me, I came here to be a writer-director and to me, directing is just basically making sure my story gets told properly. I am concerned mainly with the storytelling aspect and to me a director like Spielberg who never writes his own stuff or really comes up with ideas of his own, I cannot respect that as much. I can respect that he's one of the best directors ever, but as a filmmaker I have less respect for him than I do people who make lesser films but write and direct them, because to me at least they have a voice and they are getting a message out there. I just don't understand how you can be in the business that long and essentially not have a desire to tell a story of serious meaning that you wrote, you came up with, from your own imagination. I've taken a screenwriting class in college, read lots of books on it, but ultimately I'm not there yet by any means. People seem to like this script I wrote for the short we're shooting, but it's like pulling teeth for me -- I must have spent 60 hours to write that 6.5 page script. It doesn't come easy to me. I've written two non-fiction books and I've been a professional writer since I was 17, but screenwriting is its own entirely different beast. I'd give myself a 9.5 out of 10 on my technical and non-fiction writing ability, I have honed my skills to near-perfection from a lifetime of essay writing, my philosophy degree (I actually have a third published book, casually, in philosophy essays), and my two non-fiction books. But as a fiction writer I'd give myself maybe a 4 out of 10, I don't know. It's awkward to me, I've never done much fiction writing, I hate the descriptions and the way it's written, it all sounds corny to me when I write it and I'm just too exacting and technical to make it sound artful, instead it comes across stilted and hokey and just wrong. That's why I much prefer screenwriting, where at least I can just write the dialogue, the locations, and a few actions, not have to make it flowery. I'd give myself more like a 6.5 in screenwriting, meaning I have the ability to pull off a very good script but so far only short stuff, and it's hit and miss, very difficult for me, doesn't come easy yet. I might say for me, in an ideal world, I would come up with the story and about a 10 page treatment for what I wanted, then a professional screenwriter would take what I want for the story and turn it into the finished script, and I'd direct. That would be really awesome, because then it would be my story but with the experience and professional screenwriting of a real WGA scribe for instance. But for now I'd rather learn how to improve myself, and see where that takes me.

Too often the problem with student shorts, however, is truly awful screenwriting. Really corny dialogue, lots of cliches, and basically storylines that aren't interesting or unique. If you are a really competent director, and a bad screenwriter, you are truly better off pairing with a gifted writer and together forming a team that can do superior work, rather than doing it all yourself.

 

[filmman]

I'm directing this at the original question:

it's like if a major league baseball team took the field before the game and decided who would play what and they decided who would be the manager and the owner of record, then they commence to play the game and hope to win.

it's amateur time.... thanks to the technology. I sit before my G5 and dream big dreams, LOL.

 

[Martay]

So true.

I totally agree about the screenplay issue, I mean I write my own stuff because it's very important to me, I came here to be a writer-director and to me, directing is just basically making sure my story gets told properly.

Well. This is what all the aspiring filmmakers say to themselves. It doesn't make their ability any better.

Most would-be filmmakers say they write their own stuff because they can't find scripts. Well, most have never looked. It's not like they'll be stacked in the back yard waiting for you to rake and find them.

It's about networking. Most start networking once they need a crew to shoot their project. Well, they need to network BEFORE they have a project to shoot.

It's not like things are going to change despite many who AGREE about the dearth of decent writing in most people's films. Shoot. There's a dearth of decent writing EVERYWHERE in the industry, Top to Bottom.

I have a different path but understand why people rush out and write their own stuff.

I never wanted to be a Filmmaker per se, but found it necessary to further my own career as a screenwriter. So, I put lots of time in on sets trying to learn how to make movies before I ever thought to shoot one of my scripts.

Most people are gung ho to make "something" so they just go for it. Which is why there's so much badness out there.

I don't like that it's that way, it just is that way.

-M

 

[JonathanLB]

Well. This is what all the aspiring filmmakers say to themselves. It doesn't make their ability any better.

Most would-be filmmakers say they write their own stuff because they can't find scripts. Well, most have never looked. It's not like they'll be stacked in the back yard waiting for you to rake and find them.

It's about networking. Most start networking once they need a crew to shoot their project. Well, they need to network BEFORE they have a project to shoot.

It's not like things are going to change despite many who AGREE about the dearth of decent writing in most people's films. Shoot. There's a dearth of decent writing EVERYWHERE in the industry, Top to Bottom.

I have a different path but understand why people rush out and write their own stuff.

I never wanted to be a Filmmaker per se, but found it necessary to further my own career as a screenwriter. So, I put lots of time in on sets trying to learn how to make movies before I ever thought to shoot one of my scripts.

Most people are gung ho to make "something" so they just go for it. Which is why there's so much badness out there.

I don't like that it's that way, it just is that way.

-M

Sure, I'm not denying that most people think that, but most people's stuff is horrible. The screenwriting class I took at Oregon State is taught by a professor who only accepts a dozen students per year, it's once annually (in the winter term), and of the handful of students who have taken this class over about 10 years, 4 of them have had their screenplays optioned to Hollywood, one had multiple screenplays optioned, not sure if any of them got turned into films or not. But he has a good hit rate, statistically. Not to say that all of the people in the class were great screenwriters, but a few were excellent. One guy's feature script, or what was done of it plus the outline, was really good, heck I'd love to shoot it

That being said, I'm not just looking for a good story to shoot. I don't care about that at all. There are lots of good stories out there -- I want to tell stories that matter to me. I could care less about directing someone else's work, frankly. That's not what I want to do. I have zero interest in being the next Spielberg, where I find a script and direct someone else's story. That's not my story, not my voice. If I write a screenplay that needs help, I'll hire someone else to help bring it up to shooting quality it needs to be. I guess a lot of people's goal is, I don't know, to work regularly as a filmmaker of some sort, and direct good stories. That's fine and all, but there are lots of good stories already. I came here to direct stories that matter to me. I majored in philosophy in college so I could direct films with philosophical significance, not overtly preachy (those are the worst), but things along the lines of a Blade Runner or a Minority Report, where the commercial appeal is there but so are meaningful discussions on ethical conflicts.

Not to sound cocky, but what I'd say to someone who fancies themselves a great screenwriter and specializes in that is so what? So you're a good screenwriter. Do you have ideas that are not completely mediocre? Do you have stories to tell that really put important ideas in the viewer's consciousness? I have studied a long time to know what I want to say, and honestly no disrespect but screenwriting is not that difficult. It just isn't. Learning a form is a lot less difficult than learning the elements of a good story, which comes a lot more from studying film than from studying screenwriting. Ok great, someone has read a lot of screenplays, read a lot of screenplay books (I've done all of this), but I've written more than 700 film reviews in my life, I've studied film from 1894 through present, in cinema cultures around the world, I've dedicated my life to this point to understanding what makes great filmmaking and great storytelling. I've never had any worries about being able to tell stories that matter to me, that work, I've only been worried about learning the technical aspects of making them happen, and that point has approached where I am confident I know how to do that fairly well. My main hurdle is working with actors and trying to bring out the performances I will need for heavier material, and that will take years, I am sure, to develop properly.

I've read lots of terrible screenplays, student stuff, that I can't believe they're going to shoot. They would be better off finding someone who really knows what they are doing, but these are also mostly people who have never even taken a good screenwriting class, never studied filmmaking, they are just dreamers who are doing the screenwriting thing because they think they have to. I'm not in that boat so don't lump me there I know what I'm doing and what I want and I'm not going to be impressed by someone else's screenwriting abilities over mine. I've been a professional writer for almost ten years now, I certainly do not fear screenwriting.

 

[Martay]

Sure, I'm not denying that most people think that, but most people's stuff is horrible.

I could care less about directing someone else's work, frankly. That's not what I want to do.

Not to sound cocky, but what I'd say to someone who fancies themselves a great screenwriter and specializes in that is so what? So you're a good screenwriter.

I'm not in that boat so don't lump me there I know what I'm doing and what I want and I'm not going to be impressed by someone else's screenwriting abilities over mine. I've been a professional writer for almost ten years now, I certainly do not fear screenwriting.

Well, basically, you're saying that you're better than most. Fine. That's what most people think. I'm not saying I don't think the same.

My point was that your tone was scolding to filmmakers who write when they shouldn't, and I say YOU'RE RIGHT, it happens all the time.

However, who's to say they shouldn't? Me? You? Of course, but whether our opinions matter is up for debate.

You do sound cocky by the way. Nothing wrong with that.

SO WHAT? Someone who's a good screenwriter and only a good screenwriter may have just as much to say (important stuff) as you. So it is a big deal. If good screenwriters were discounted like that, then the world of cinema would be far worse off today.

I can't lump you into a boat unless I was privy to your work. I merely expressed that while I agree that there is terrible work out there (on every level, mind you, not just the amateurs), I know why and can empathize with why that happens. I don't excuse it, but I understand.

The same reason you expressed is what every other filmmaker who writes their own stuff expresses (whether valid or not is in question; not on your end I should clarify).

Good luck on your process and projects.

Do you have any that you've already done or still working towards it?

-M

 

[Nathyn]

Hi, I was wondering if any of you had ever felt the need to credit your actors with some kind of Production credit as well, due to the excellent work they'd done behind the scenes?

Would this be unusual in any way?

One of my actors bought a producer credit simply because they wanted to be known as a producer. In the past I dealt with a manager (of a famous singer from the early nineties) and her manager wanted her to have a producer credit. I was like "why?" I was paying her to act. But the manager was so sure this "celebrity" was going to sale my film. I was like "No one's heard from this act since about 92 or 93." I agreed to it on the basis that it was understood "credit" was ALL she'd get. But the project feel through anyway, so whatever.

-Nate