Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

D

David_M_Payne

Well-known member
OK, I'm getting clued in on lights, and I already have 2 DVX's, one here, one on the way for my movie plus an AT897 boom mic and boom pole as well as a lot of other stuff, fast computer and the Adobe suite, Matrox 100X video card etc. (See this thread here) for that list, but I need a couple of Lav mics. Is the wired countryman B3 mic OK? I would love wireless, but funds are getting tight and I need to be judicious in my spending.

As I will have two DVX's to shoot with, should I get a DAT deck and another two Boom mics or (?), or will I have enough recording ability with four channels of sound off the DVX's? I will be using large HD monitors independent from the camera, so the sound guys can have headphones on to listen to the sound and not get in the cameraman's way. (At least that is my theory at this point reality may prove different.) My plan is to use the AT897 for group recording, the two lavs for individual recording and leave one channel on the DVX mic recording as a reference sound source that can be dropped in post.

I will have enough money to buy one DAT deck if the price is around $1,000.00 like the Sony PCM R500 Pro. (does anyone know of decent DAT decks for less than this from a reliable source? If you do, please post a link or name I can look up OK?)

Thoughts? Thanks.

David
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

Yes B3 is a great lav mic.

The $1000 you are spending on a DAT deck would probably be better spent elsewhere. DAT is very much a dying format but $1000 will still only get you a non-timecode DAT. For that money you could get the Fostex FR-2 which I have heard many good things about for the budget minded (not really a high-end recorder but decent for the money).

You could skip the recorder all together if you got 2 DVX and a tight budget.

"My plan is to use the AT897 for group recording, the two lavs for individual recording and leave one channel on the DVX mic recording as a reference sound source that can be dropped in post."

Not sure you have the right idea here, David, but I might be misunderstanding what you are saying. The shotgun has a pretty tight pattern and has to be kept focused and close to person talking. If anything a group discussion makes if very difficult to use a single shotgun.

Also in a fictional movies, lavs are general used for wideshots or just when the shotgun is impossible to work. Then they are used on wireless units. The wired lav coming out the pant leg or skirt will get in the wideshot and restrict the actor's mobility. You could use some money you save by skipping the DAT and rent some wireless for your production.

Just some thoughts. :)
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

[quote author=wabbit link=board=audio;num=1108616277;start=0#1 date=02/16/05 at 22:09:28]Yes B3 is a great lav mic.

The $1000 you are spending on a DAT deck would probably be better spent elsewhere. DAT is very much a dying format but $1000 will still only get you a non-timecode DAT. For that money you could get the Fostex FR-2 which I have heard many good things about for the budget minded (not really a high-end recorder but decent for the money).

You could skip the recorder all together if you got 2 DVX and a tight budget.

"My plan is to use the AT897 for group recording, the two lavs for individual recording and leave one channel on the DVX mic recording as a reference sound source that can be dropped in post."

Not sure you have the right idea here, David, but I might be misunderstanding what you are saying. The shotgun has a pretty tight pattern and has to be kept focused and close to person talking. If anything a group discussion makes if very difficult to use a single shotgun.

Also in a fictional movies, lavs are general used for wideshots or just when the shotgun is impossible to work. Then they are used on wireless units. The wired lav coming out the pant leg or skirt will get in the wideshot and restrict the actor's mobility. You could use some money you save by skipping the DAT and rent some wireless for your production.

Just some thoughts. :)[/quote]

Thanks wabbet. As for the Shotgun I meant that as each speaker spoke in the group, the boom operator would point the AT 897 mic at him to capture his/her words.

On another note would it be a good idea to get a more wide angle mic for instances like the inside of a lab or office where I would have control over outside sounds when it comes to a couple or few characters speaking? Is there a good mic for this use, or is it best to stick with the AT897 on the boom pole and/or the lavs?

As for the wireless mics, I can afford them if I don't need a recorder, so do you have any suggestions/links for the best way to go for two wireless mics wabbit? (Or anyone else?)

Thanks

David
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

Yeah, a hypercardiod is much better for indoor shoots. A GREAT one being the Schoeps mk41 ($1300). But I will guess that is not in your budget, so the cheap hyper everyone loves is the Oktava 012. It is trickey to use as it is very suceptable to handling noise, so you need a good shock mount and a good boom operator.

If you poke around these forums you will see the Sennheiser 100 G2 ($500) is a very popular budget wireless. If you got a thousand dollars to spend on wireless let me propose another option. Purchase a couple of Lectro digital hybrids on your credit card ($2000 each) At the end of the production you sell them used (ebay or many pro audio stores have used depts). You will definately get AT LEAST $1500 pre unit back. Your total expense: $1000 or less. Just make sure the equipment gets handled with care so you can sell it in mint condition.

I know a lot of medium budget TV shows will do this for extra equipment they need but the production run is too long to rent.

Good luck.
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

[quote author=wabbit link=board=audio;num=1108616277;start=0#3 date=02/17/05 at 00:52:39]Yeah, a hypercardiod is much better for indoor shoots. A GREAT one being the Schoeps mk41 ($1300). But I will guess that is not in your budget, so the cheap hyper everyone loves is the Oktava 012. It is trickey to use as it is very suceptable to handling noise, so you need a good shock mount and a good boom operator.

If you poke around these forums you will see the Sennheiser 100 G2 ($500) is a very popular budget wireless. If you got a thousand dollars to spend on wireless let me propose another option. Purchase a couple of Lectro digital hybrids on your credit card ($2000 each) At the end of the production you sell them used (ebay or many pro audio stores have used depts). You will definately get AT LEAST $1500 pre unit back. Your total expense: $1000 or less. Just make sure the equipment gets handled with care so you can sell it in mint condition.

I know a lot of medium budget TV shows will do this for extra equipment they need but the production run is too long to rent.

Good luck.[/quote]

I don't really want to try and go with the Wireless buy/resale suggestion, both for initial cost and the need to treat them with kid gloves, as I'll be using non-professional actors and crew and I can't count on them to do everything right. I'll just look over the one you suggested and I believe that someone here also recommended some Sony units too on another thread.
Thanks for the suggestions on the hypercardiod mic and its uses. I have a lot to learn to get this movie out of my head and off my computer and onto a DVD. It is going to be interesting.

David
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

Just to add...

If you do decide to get a recorder, rather than buying a DAT of any flavor, I strongly reccomend the Marantz PMD-670. You can pick one up for about $650, add in a couple of 1 GB CF chips (I got mine at Fry's for $49 each) and you have an excellent setup for recording.

As far as the B3's go, I haven't used B3's, just B6's, and they are amazing. Ultra small and great sound. I used them with a Lectro wireless kit, not wired, though. I agree with the post above that trying to use a wired lav in wide shots won't work any more than trying to boom in a wide shot.

One last thing to add, if you are using lavs in any fashion, be sure to get room tone/ambient sound (I always go for at least a minute...the crew hates me. It's amazing how hard it is for some people to just stay quiet for 1 minute. ;-) ). Lav's tend to record sound really flat, so you will need to layer in the ambient.

HTH,

Phil
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

[quote author=ptalsky link=board=audio;num=1108616277;start=0#5 date=02/23/05 at 10:10:08]Just to add...

If you do decide to get a recorder, rather than buying a DAT of any flavor, I strongly reccomend the Marantz PMD-670. You can pick one up for about $650, add in a couple of 1 GB CF chips (I got mine at Fry's for $49 each) and you have an excellent setup for recording.

As far as the B3's go, I haven't used B3's, just B6's, and they are amazing. Ultra small and great sound. I used them with a Lectro wireless kit, not wired, though. I agree with the post above that trying to use a wired lav in wide shots won't work any more than trying to boom in a wide shot.

One last thing to add, if you are using lavs in any fashion, be sure to get room tone/ambient sound (I always go for at least a minute...the crew hates me. It's amazing how hard it is for some people to just stay quiet for 1 minute. ;-) ). Lav's tend to record sound really flat, so you will need to layer in the ambient.

HTH,

Phil[/quote]

Thanks Phil. I'll be sure to do that with the rooms and the ambient sound. I did decide to go with some wireless Lavs, the EW112-G2's and if the included mics are not giving me what I need I'll get a couple of the B-3's or 6's to plug in. Plus there are some nude and semi nude scenes, and the B-3's may be the way to go in the end there. As for your other suggestion I may do that If I can't get enough audio with the two DVX's I have now. The Audio Engineer at EVS said that with the two DVX's and the mics I have now I should have plenty of audio channels to work with, plus they will be timed with each other and the video thanks to the great suggestion made by Barry_Green on the "Best Sound with Two Shooting Cameras" thread about using one remote to start both cameras at the same time.

Its stuff like this that makes this site such a valuable resource for us all, especially guys like me who have a very big learning curve ahead of us.

David
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

David,

If you do go for the B3's or B6's, be sure to get the flesh colored wire version (you may have to pay a bit more for it, but it will help in hiding it, believe me). Of course, this is presuming your actors are caucasian.

Phil
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

[quote author=ptalsky link=board=audio;num=1108616277;start=0#7 date=02/23/05 at 18:31:53]David,

If you do go for the B3's or B6's, be sure to get the flesh colored wire version (you may have to pay a bit more for it, but it will help in hiding it, believe me).  Of course, this is presuming your actors are caucasian.

Phil[/quote]

Yeah Phil, the only pic I've seen of the B3's is of the flesh (White mans flesh that is) color. I'm white, and my female lead will probably be white, but I will not cast that part based on color so who knows, I may need one of each.

David
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

Just so you know, you can get whatever color countryman and then buy different color caps.
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

Wabbit, this is true, but I've had situations where having the wire in flesh color would have helped (where I was hiding the mic in the actor's hair, and running it up their back...the black wire stood out, where a tan colored wire would not.) I also did use the color caps, and they definately help.
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

[quote author=ptalsky link=board=audio;num=1108616277;start=0#10 date=02/23/05 at 20:45:44]Wabbit, this is true, but I've had situations where having the wire in flesh color would have helped (where I was hiding the mic in the actor's hair, and running it up their back...the black wire stood out, where a tan colored wire would not.)  I also did use the color caps, and they definately help.[/quote]

And you could use flesh colored bandaids and makeup to hide them too. I'm sure that there a lot of way to make them work for me. As I said my learning curve is really big here, but I'm ready for the challenge. And it should be fun, at least I'm going to try to have that attitude as much as I can on this project.

David
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

David
You wrote: I will be using large HD monitors independent from the camera, so the sound guys can have headphones on to listen to the sound and not get in the cameraman's way.

I don't follow.

I would suggest that from the description you've given, you can do everything two track. One way is boom mic, perhaps one track full up and another backed off 15% for safety.
Other way is the two G-2 wireless, one on each track.
But you don't have a mixer in the chain. I would suggest you add a small portable field mixer with at least 2 inputs and stereo output. This mixer will give the boom op a headphone feed. Boom op wears the mixer on their chest and feeds the boom into the mixer. You send stereo out to feed the cameras. It will probably only have one set of outputs so you buy a pair of splitters to feed 2 cameras.

And for group dialog indoors, you probably would be better off with a hyper. Do get a very good shock mount for the Octava.
Options here are to get the K6 Senn that will accept either a hyper or short gun or a long gun. Or to go up a notch get the AKG blue line system with a hyper cap and a short gun cap. both of these systems are not nearly a suswptable to handling noise but still need a shock mount. Wind screens are a must for any exteriors.
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

[quote author=xort link=board=audio;num=1108616277;start=0#12 date=02/25/05 at 06:30:22]David
You wrote: I will be using large HD monitors independent from the camera, so the sound guys can have headphones on to listen to the sound and not get in the cameraman's way.

I don't follow.

I would suggest that from the description you've given, you can do everything two track. One way is boom mic, perhaps one track full up and another backed off 15% for safety.
Other way is the two G-2 wireless, one on each track.
But you don't have a mixer in the chain. I would suggest you add a small portable field mixer with at least 2 inputs and stereo output. This mixer will give the boom op a headphone feed. Boom op wears the mixer on their chest and feeds the boom into the mixer. You send stereo out to feed the cameras. It will probably only have one set of outputs so you buy a pair of splitters to feed 2 cameras.

And for group dialog indoors, you probably would be better off with a hyper. Do get a very good shock mount for the Octava.
Options here are to get the K6 Senn that will accept either a hyper or short gun or a long gun. Or to go up a notch get the AKG blue line system with a hyper cap and a short gun cap. both of these systems are not nearly a suswptable to handling noise but still need a shock mount. Wind screens are a must for any exteriors.[/quote]

I'm not sure I'm following you now. How does a Mixer with two inputs and a stereo out work on the DVX? I have two DVX's for sound as well as video, so I thought that solved my need for more than two channels of sound, as that gives me four channels of sound. But you make a good point that I've been thinking about, so I’ll look into a mixer as you suggested for when I only really need one DVX for the particular shot I'm working on, but need to use the two Wireless mics and a boom mic. Do you have any links and or suggestions for a good medium to low cost mixer?

I already passed on the Octava and went with the Sennheiser K-6 as well as a ME-66 and ME-64 cap for it. In addition I already have an AT897 that I can use as the boom mic if I need the K-6/64 combo for a shot. I have two Lightwave windscreens for the mics, one that is for the 66 cap, the MS-106, and one that will work for both the 64 and the AT897, the MS-194 model. I've also got the K-TEC K-SM shock mount which works with both the AT and Senn mics. As well as two boom poles a 9' K-TEC with internal wiring for the mic and a GITZO 6' for interior and a secondary boom on the set. I'm looking at the SABRA-SOM SSM-1 unit that the Sound Room sells for their mics that has great versatility and is $49.00. It can handle a great variety of mic shapes and sizes. Here is a link to it (click here.)

Well I have to do some work on the script, or this movie will never get shot, catch you guys later.

Edited to add how about the Rolls MX124 mixer?

David
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

you mentioned a boom mounted mic or 2 lavs so I didn't think you wanted to use those together.

No matter how you are micing, your soundperson should have a way to control the levels. Trying to adjust during takes with the small wheels on the camera is just about impossible. therefore a mixer in the chain is very useful.
You can get a 3 channel mixer such as the PSC promix or the Sound Devices 302. 3 in and stereo out.
Most field production is done stereo but I can understand your desire to use all four channels.
When I've done this I used 2 mixers and fed each camera a separate mixer. I've also done it with one mixer and fed stereo to both cameras. You could try mixing 2 sources via the mixer and feeding 2 sources direct into a camera and hope the levels there are fine. There are many different choices and they will all depend on the exact circumstances you find yourself in.
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

[quote author=wabbit link=board=audio;num=1108616277;start=0#3 date=02/17/05 at 00:52:39]Yeah, a hypercardiod is much better for indoor shoots.  A GREAT one being the Schoeps mk41 ($1300).  But I will guess that is not in your budget, so the cheap hyper everyone loves is the Oktava 012.  It is trickey to use as it is very suceptable to handling noise, so you need a good shock mount and a good boom operator.

If you poke around these forums you will see the Sennheiser 100 G2 ($500) is a very popular budget wireless.  If you got a thousand dollars to spend on wireless let me propose another option.  Purchase a couple of Lectro digital hybrids on your credit card ($2000 each)  At the end of the production you sell them used (ebay or many pro audio stores have used depts).  You will definately get AT LEAST $1500 pre unit back.  Your total expense: $1000 or less.  Just make sure the equipment gets handled with care so you can sell it in mint condition.

I know a lot of medium budget TV shows will do this for extra equipment they need but the production run is too long to rent.

Good luck.[/quote]

Please show me where I can buy a new Schoeps cmc6-41 for $1,300. Everywhre I look is a few hundred more.

thanks
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

[quote author=xort link=board=audio;num=1108616277;start=0#14 date=02/27/05 at 13:33:25]you mentioned a boom mounted mic or 2 lavs so I didn't think you wanted to use those together.

No matter how you are micing, your soundperson should have a way to control the levels. Trying to adjust during takes with the small wheels on the camera is just about impossible. therefore a mixer in the chain is very useful.
You can get a 3 channel mixer such as the PSC promix or the Sound Devices 302. 3 in and stereo out.
Most field production is done stereo but I can understand your desire to use all four channels.
When I've done this I used 2 mixers and fed each camera a separate mixer. I've also done it with one mixer and fed stereo to both cameras. You could try mixing 2 sources via the mixer and feeding 2 sources direct into a camera and hope the levels there are fine. There are many different choices and they will all depend on the exact circumstances you find yourself in.[/quote]

I bought a Rolls MX124 mixer for $158. The tech sheet looks pretty good on it and the price was attractive. It is a 4 XLR in, to 2 XLR stereo out mixer. I did look at the two you pointed out above, but the PSC promix was a bit two expensive, and the Sound Devices 302 was way to expensive. Hopefully the MX124 will do the trick. I couldn't find a review on it, but Rolls products have a good rep for the money from what I've been able to find out on them. If this mixer turns out to be good enough, I'll buy another one for the other DVX. Thanks for the input, I really appreciate the help you guys on this forum have given me on this film project.

Now back to the script.

David
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

[quote author=GregJacobson link=board=audio;num=1108616277;start=15#15 date=02/27/05 at 17:13:18]

Please show me where I can buy a new Schoeps cmc6-41 for $1,300.  Everywhre  I look is a few hundred more.

thanks
[/quote]

Try Coffey Sound or Tai Audio.
 
Re: Countryman B3 Lav, is it any good?

[quote author=wabbit link=board=audio;num=1108616277;start=15#17 date=02/28/05 at 11:48:28]

Try Coffey Sound or Tai Audio.
[/quote]

Speaking of Coffey Sound I just ordered two of the B3's in Flesh tone from them to go with the G-2 units I got in today. That should do it for mics for now.

David
 
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