I'm not what I would consider a writer...I'd rather be behind the camera. I'm also not that experienced yet with independent productions. What I'd like to know is what kind of protection does a person have if they come up with an idea for a script and then someone else hears it and goes and uses it? I had two movie ideas which I had started writing scripts for and I stupidly told a film student going to the NY film academy. It has since come to my attention that they are using one of my ideas for a school project and I'm a little miffed. I know I shouldn't have opened my mouth in the first place...but are there any laws/protection against this? Just because he has his script done before me, am I S.O.L.?:undecided
copyrighting an idea?
- Thread starter Ratzy
- Start date
You can not copyright an idea only "an expression of an idea in a fixed and tangible form" (i.e a screenplay written down) Even if you wrote 2 sentences down and copyrighted that, copyright only protects those words, not the idea.
The only chance you might have and it is slim, is that an implied contract might exist between you an this person. For this you should seek counsel from and attorney in the field. reference the Blaustein and Desney cases.
Valuable lesson though, to keep your ideas to yourself until you have to take the leap or the project won't happen. Also keep detailed records of the conversations when you have them with the "right" people. (producers you want to get involved in your project)
The only chance you might have and it is slim, is that an implied contract might exist between you an this person. For this you should seek counsel from and attorney in the field. reference the Blaustein and Desney cases.
Valuable lesson though, to keep your ideas to yourself until you have to take the leap or the project won't happen. Also keep detailed records of the conversations when you have them with the "right" people. (producers you want to get involved in your project)
Nathan.Buxton
Well-known member
Perfect example of why people should be worried about telling people ideas, and not worried about showing people scripts.
Also a perfect example of this is some authors of an instructional poker book came up with an ingenious idea to made a visual chart of the technique. Later, the chart was almost exactly copied, but it was formatted slightly differently and had the symbols replaced by typographical characters. The original author's tried to claim copyright infringement but indeed, none had occurred.
Once your ideas are out they are fair game. Once you've written a script, someone may come along and steal the script. Your job is to ensure the way you have written the idea is the best possible, making it pointless for anybody to steal your idea since you already have it done best.
Also a perfect example of this is some authors of an instructional poker book came up with an ingenious idea to made a visual chart of the technique. Later, the chart was almost exactly copied, but it was formatted slightly differently and had the symbols replaced by typographical characters. The original author's tried to claim copyright infringement but indeed, none had occurred.
Once your ideas are out they are fair game. Once you've written a script, someone may come along and steal the script. Your job is to ensure the way you have written the idea is the best possible, making it pointless for anybody to steal your idea since you already have it done best.
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
This is a good example of why I rarely entertain conversations about scripts or ideas with strangers.
I had a guy try to talk me into shooting his script on some back end deal... and he wanted me to read the script because he was sure that would sell me on the idea... I read the script and hated it... so for all my trouble I had 2 weeks of paranoid emails from the guy ranting about how I better not steal his ideas...
At first I entertained his emails and tried to explain to him that his attitude wouldn't take him far unless he could control his fears... but eventually I was getting emails accusing me of stealing his ideas if I even used the name Alan or Sarah... well that's when I stopped playing ball with that chap.
If you could copywrite ideas then I'd sit around hogging all the brilliance of the world and just wait for the checks to start rolling in... I get at least 2 or 3 good movie or short ideas a day... there's a huge difference between ideas and ideas realized.
Frankly you could hardly be guaranteed protection from loss of the ideas in a "protected" script... even then it's possible that the guy with the most money will win... but anyway... this is why you're lucky if you can get anybody in Hollywood to actually look at a script... 99.9% of the time it's not worth the potential headaches.
I came up with the air channel for Rebok walking shoes when I was 18... I gave the idea to Kangaroos in STL when I was 21... by that time 2 german podiatrists were working with Rebok on the shoe and 2 years later (about) the Rebok Step was born... and now everybody and their brother makes shoes on that principle. Kangaroos is out of business... and I'll bet those two scientists made out okay... so no worries... think of some more ideas. I'm sure you have it in you.
I had a guy try to talk me into shooting his script on some back end deal... and he wanted me to read the script because he was sure that would sell me on the idea... I read the script and hated it... so for all my trouble I had 2 weeks of paranoid emails from the guy ranting about how I better not steal his ideas...
At first I entertained his emails and tried to explain to him that his attitude wouldn't take him far unless he could control his fears... but eventually I was getting emails accusing me of stealing his ideas if I even used the name Alan or Sarah... well that's when I stopped playing ball with that chap.
If you could copywrite ideas then I'd sit around hogging all the brilliance of the world and just wait for the checks to start rolling in... I get at least 2 or 3 good movie or short ideas a day... there's a huge difference between ideas and ideas realized.
Frankly you could hardly be guaranteed protection from loss of the ideas in a "protected" script... even then it's possible that the guy with the most money will win... but anyway... this is why you're lucky if you can get anybody in Hollywood to actually look at a script... 99.9% of the time it's not worth the potential headaches.
I came up with the air channel for Rebok walking shoes when I was 18... I gave the idea to Kangaroos in STL when I was 21... by that time 2 german podiatrists were working with Rebok on the shoe and 2 years later (about) the Rebok Step was born... and now everybody and their brother makes shoes on that principle. Kangaroos is out of business... and I'll bet those two scientists made out okay... so no worries... think of some more ideas. I'm sure you have it in you.
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Charli
cool little "title"
This 'fear' of someone stealing an idea is usually inherent within new writers. Experienced writers will tell their loglines/premise lines to everybody they meet; at Starbucks, the grocery, their kid's school, etc.
Why? To see the 'reaction' to that idea of theirs, to see how interested people are when they pitch that idea. Experienced writers don't think twice about it. The chances that your ideas are stellar, when you've never pitched an idea to an industry professional, well, are nill to none.
I say PITCH AWAY to everybody you know, see their reaction, learn to pitch an idea pithy, you'll be better off for it.
Why? To see the 'reaction' to that idea of theirs, to see how interested people are when they pitch that idea. Experienced writers don't think twice about it. The chances that your ideas are stellar, when you've never pitched an idea to an industry professional, well, are nill to none.
I say PITCH AWAY to everybody you know, see their reaction, learn to pitch an idea pithy, you'll be better off for it.
alex whitmer
Veteran
sad but true
sad but true
Four ways to go about it.
1. Forget it and move on. Feel better about yourself knowing you don't need to steal ideas to make a film. Karma will eventually find the prick.
2. Get someone to write your idea into a screenplay, then register it. That way it's yours. Document the time and place you had the conversation with the prick.
3. Let this prick know you are aware of the situation, and tell them that you would like to be credited with 'Story by Ratzy'.
4. Spread horrible rumors about the prick.
I strongly recommend one and/or three. Two is a lot of work. Four is childish, but a good last resort.
a
www.alexwhitmer.wordpress.com
sad but true
Four ways to go about it.
1. Forget it and move on. Feel better about yourself knowing you don't need to steal ideas to make a film. Karma will eventually find the prick.
2. Get someone to write your idea into a screenplay, then register it. That way it's yours. Document the time and place you had the conversation with the prick.
3. Let this prick know you are aware of the situation, and tell them that you would like to be credited with 'Story by Ratzy'.
4. Spread horrible rumors about the prick.
I strongly recommend one and/or three. Two is a lot of work. Four is childish, but a good last resort.
a
www.alexwhitmer.wordpress.com
Thanks for the feedback. I didn't think I had much of a leg to stand on but it still pisses me off knowing he got his idea from me. (my mistake...I know, I know...)
I plan on finishing my script yet and blowing his crap out of the water. I haven't seen his script so I don't know what direction he took the idea, but the plot was based on my discussion with him.
I plan on finishing my script yet and blowing his crap out of the water. I haven't seen his script so I don't know what direction he took the idea, but the plot was based on my discussion with him.
That's the right attitude. The quality is in the execution of the idea, not the idea itself. You should feel flattered that someone else thought enough of your idea to steal it. 
And if you can think of one idea, you can think of more, while that poor schmoe has gotta steal his.
And if you can think of one idea, you can think of more, while that poor schmoe has gotta steal his.
EJ Pennypacker
Well-known member
In answer to your general question about protecting your material (from agent/manager/fellow filmmaker/writer/exec) the least amount of work you can do to protect your idea is to write it in treatment form and then copyright it/ register it with the WGA.
That way you have something in detail that you can provide as evidence in a court of law.
The truth is there's so many ideas that are similiar floating around H-wood, that's why production companies have writers sign release forms.
Sometimes it's just weird luck (I scrapped a project last month based on a spec sale of a project that was the same as something I was developing).
I don't know your situation, but as Barry S said, it should be two part with your work - the IDEA - then the EXECUTION of it.
EJ
That way you have something in detail that you can provide as evidence in a court of law.
The truth is there's so many ideas that are similiar floating around H-wood, that's why production companies have writers sign release forms.
Sometimes it's just weird luck (I scrapped a project last month based on a spec sale of a project that was the same as something I was developing).
I don't know your situation, but as Barry S said, it should be two part with your work - the IDEA - then the EXECUTION of it.
EJ
your idea is copyrighted as soon as you think of it, but the problem is that you have to be able to prove you had it first. that's what the library of congress & WGA are for. If you can't prove you had the idea before they did, then you've got no room for recourse.
This is why I suggest everyone write their own screenplays as best they can and register them, then feel free to talk about them. If someone takes, you've got proof. But if you won't write them down, then you can't prove anything when the worst happens.
This is why I suggest everyone write their own screenplays as best they can and register them, then feel free to talk about them. If someone takes, you've got proof. But if you won't write them down, then you can't prove anything when the worst happens.
This is not accurate, you can not copyright an idea. I think you may mean, your words are copyrighted as soon as you write something but then you need to register it to have full protection.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and disagree a little bit. The basic principle holds that one cannot copyright an idea. It's the EXPRESSION OF THE IDEA that is protected. However, the line between idea and expression of an idea (a treatment or script) is not clear. And the "big boys" are suing each other for theft of ideas all the time. Sometimes with merit. (Remember when Disney sued Dreamworks because Katzenberg was supposedly aware of the IDEA of a bug movie in development at Disney (Bug's Life), and then "stole that idea" when he put Antz into production at Dreamworks.
In the end, you have no protection if you don't have the money or evidence to prove a case, whether they took one small "idea" or the whole damn story. But if you have written a script and someone knew about it and takes your "idea," and you have the money and feel truly ripped off enough to make it worth your while, hey, the go ahead and sue away. Whether you can prove a copyright violation is often not all that connected to whether there really WAS a copyright violation. And the tenet that "you can't copyright an idea" still doesn't define where an idea begins and ends. Is a one paragraph synopsis of 6th Sense enough to be an expression of an idea? Or is it just an "idea" about a psychiatrist who is trying to help a kid who sees ghosts only to discover he's a ghost himself. Is it more protected as an "idea" because it's been made into a film that's well known? The law doesn't say anything about protecting "completed films" more than "scripts" or "treatments" though we seem to feel it would obviously be stealing if I went and made a movie about a psychiatrist who is trying to help a kid who sees ghosts only to discover he's a ghost himself. But if I'd only heard about that script, before it was made, and I went and wrote one myself, would I be any less guilty of theft. Let's just say that Miramax would have sued my ass in such a case.
There's a great article in a Screenwriter issue a while back. A screenwriter found that a production company had stolen his script (the ideas? the story? again it gets murky where one begins and the other ends). And unlike many such stories, this writer seemed to getting somewhere with his case...only because he had such good EVIDENCE.
Law is so often grey and not black or white. Usually, however, it's the green that wins.
I don't think we're disagreeing here. If you have a script and can document some chain from the script to a possible infringement, then you might have some recourse. But you still can't copyright an idea alone. What you're talking about are the particulars of what constitutes infringement, and as you noted--this is a pretty gray area.
But you could make a movie that replicates the 6th sense story if you changed the detail. Fast and the Furious is Point Break. An idea is free as the air. Having a copyright is basically having the right to copy something. Therefore, first and foremost it needs to be affixed in a tangible form. Secondly, the more you write with specificity, the more protected you are because if someone steals your idea and uses THOSE SPECIFICS, you have more proof.
Where you are able to protect and idea more and more is in contract law. If you pitch and idea to a studio, there may be an implied contract created that if they move forward you will be the writer. It is important to keep detailed records of the conversations for this reason. The law currently require that both parties be professionals in the industry (whatever that means given the state of the law.)
I haven't studied the Katzenbeg case, but it sounds copyright is not the issue in that example but more likely contract law. (non disclosure, implied contract, good faith)
Where you are able to protect and idea more and more is in contract law. If you pitch and idea to a studio, there may be an implied contract created that if they move forward you will be the writer. It is important to keep detailed records of the conversations for this reason. The law currently require that both parties be professionals in the industry (whatever that means given the state of the law.)
I haven't studied the Katzenbeg case, but it sounds copyright is not the issue in that example but more likely contract law. (non disclosure, implied contract, good faith)
Yeah. I just think we can short change ourselves by repeating the "can't copyright an idea" mantra. Sort of like "possession is 9/10ths of the law." It isn't necessarily the case at all. I want artists to stick up for themselves. It sounds like this is a case of a guy in university and another guy in university maybe doing a similar script. It probably won't amount to much. But I see production companies steal ideas. They do it all the time. and while we're told "only neophyte writers worry about getting ideas ripped off," very successful writers will often keep their ideas to themselves for very good reason: a good idea can be worth a TON. I liked how Spielberg acknowledged that Michael Creighton's idea for "a mosquito carrying dinosaur blood is crystalized in amber" was one of the most valuable ideas he'd ever come across. Pretty simple. Easily stolen. In the right hands, worth a fortune.
Interesting too, in most copyright cases, it's a matter of demonstrating that there is a similarity of ideas, plural. One idea might not be enough for a case, but demonstrate that a few ideas were poached and all of a sudden much more convincing in a court of law. Because it's almost never a case of word-for-word copyright infringement. That's usually left to students handing in someone else's term papers.
Interesting too, in most copyright cases, it's a matter of demonstrating that there is a similarity of ideas, plural. One idea might not be enough for a case, but demonstrate that a few ideas were poached and all of a sudden much more convincing in a court of law. Because it's almost never a case of word-for-word copyright infringement. That's usually left to students handing in someone else's term papers.
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I would takeaway from this that a good idea is a precious commodity and you should protect it the best you can.
The way to do this, although imperfect, is:
1) Write the idea with specificity, register with the WGA ,and if it is a complete work, register the copyright.
2)Only share the idea with people you want involved. No need to brag to fellow filmmakers.
3) Keep a detailed log of those conversations and save all correspondence. Send thank you's that confirm the meeting.
Other than that, sometimes you have to take a leap of faith. if no one hears your idea, it will never be realized.
The way to do this, although imperfect, is:
1) Write the idea with specificity, register with the WGA ,and if it is a complete work, register the copyright.
2)Only share the idea with people you want involved. No need to brag to fellow filmmakers.
3) Keep a detailed log of those conversations and save all correspondence. Send thank you's that confirm the meeting.
Other than that, sometimes you have to take a leap of faith. if no one hears your idea, it will never be realized.
Nathan.Buxton
Well-known member
I just wanted to come back to this topic a little.
You can not copyright an idea. I think people are getting patents and copyrights mixed up. you can protect an idea... such as a trade secret, design for an invention so on such forth.
Doubt you can patent a movie idea though.
You can not copyright an idea. I think people are getting patents and copyrights mixed up. you can protect an idea... such as a trade secret, design for an invention so on such forth.
Doubt you can patent a movie idea though.
Cryogenic Filmworks
Veteran
I'm pretty damn sure that when something gets a patent it is far beyond the idea phase. There would be research, diagrams, plans, prototypes etcs... basically on the same level as a first or second draft of a script.