Copyright Music - Frustrations & a solution?

M

Mavoz

Well-known member
I'm a small time film hobbyist at the moment....and really would like to use a particular song in a production...what is frustrating is that it seems so difficult to be able to do this legally!

I've just spent some time searching around to see how expensive it would be to even consider using this song in my production and what has struck me is how difficult it seems even to find out the way to do this. One of the sites I found could give permision..but you have to be a US citizen...another site connected with the music rights owner didn't even include an email address..so I'd basically have to resort to snail mail...

Now granted I need to do more research and put more effort into this...but this is partly my point...shouldn't it be easier in 2006 to be able to do this?

As the whole world of Amateur Video production grows with the boom in home PC NLE's etc. is there need for a revamp of the way music licensing works?
....
The comment I've read is that you can't even consider using copyrighted music in low budget/amateur films because it is so expensive...

But surely if we have stores such as ITunes etc..why can't we also have a special "Video Editors Music Store"?

If I can buy a song for an Ipod for a couple of bucks why can't I also buy a song that just happens to be sitting under some video on a home DVD? And if I want to make copies of my dvd's..well of course I pay more per copy.

Here's my dream:

Online Video Editors Music Store:
1.) With a simple search you search for song:
2.) You choose song and then enter number of copies of songs you plan to make for production...eg. 100 copies for 100 Dvd's.
3.) You then pay a price per copy like you would in an Itunes store. Price may vary depending on such questions as: Is production for profit? Is production more than 100 copies...ie.more hobbyist than professional etc. etc.
4.) You happily make your video.. and ..artist receives money for having written the song...and we all can live in peace.

Now perhaps there are issues with artists not wanting their songs used in dodgy productions? But at the end of the day if they are achieving sales of a song..is this such an issue? Does an artist care that much if a CD is played on a $2 Taiwanese stereo or a $10000 Bang and Olufsen system? It's still one cd sale.

Anyway just a few thoughts I had..sorry if I'm just bringing up ground already covered...just feeling a tad frustrated..and would love an easier system for this particular age of digital media!
 
If I found some using my music and they were selling 30,000 copies... I'd sue the pants off them. And then they would have no pants. So then who's laughing?

First rule of filmmaking is you need pants. Otherwise you get no respect.
 
So here is why you will never see that: Head of KKK wants to make a recruitment video, so he logs onto this service and get's "Nights in White Satin" to sync to video of their cross burnings. Video gets around, some people start associating this song with the KKK. Artist can't sue since they legal secured rights to song thru this service.

Some artist are more protective then others, but I certainly wouldn't be foolish enough to let my work open to that possibility of abuse.

Regardless, these people put a lot of time and talent into making this song something you want to put in your video. The cultural and emotional value of a song is something that particular artist has earned. The fact that you can't instantly and cheaply use their sweat and blood for your purposes is not such a bad thing. If their work wasn't valuable then you could just pay someone cheap to write you something better.

I am not trying to sound harsh but music is an artistic expression and people that create something we all love deserve to have their work protected. From Led Zeppelin to Britney Spears.

Good luck
 
no offense nik, buts thats really bad advice to give a newbie filmmaker.

"yeah, just pirate the stuff, you might not get sued for a million trillion bucks"

mavoz. just think about how bad it would be if you DID get nailed. game over. get the rights.
 
I assume that you are talking about popular music, if not then there are plenty of places to obtain rights to non-mainstream music for resonable rates. Do a search here and you will find a lot of suggestions to some great sites. For starters check out http://www.freeplaymusic.com and look at their rate schedules.

Marlene
 
First you need to define more of what you want. If this is a home movie that is never going to festivals or going to be for sale then I think you can probably go ahead and use it. That is you iPod equivalent, you can't (legally) download a file to your iPod and then sell it to someone else. If there is ANY fame and fortune aspects to your film, your submitting to festivals, your selling copies etc then you need to get the rights, and they might be very expensive. I worked on a film that had verbal agreements on the music but hadn't gotten them in writing (actually Phil was in this film ) and one of the groups got a hit suddenly the free song was going to cost $250,000 (over 5X the total film budget). The song had to get removed and a sequence that was cut to that song re-cut to another song.
If you think this is harsh just think how you would feel if I got ahold of your film used it in part of my film and started selling copies with out asking you or paying you.
SK
 
This has got to be some of the worst advice I've seen. Some people steal cars also and get away with it but it's not what I would suggest to someone looking for a new ride. Yes you might get away with it, your film however will never be eligible for any reputable film festival and never be carried by any reputable distributor and you will have to learn to not worry about a special delivery letter dragging you to court and costing you a great deal of money.
If it's for you and your friends and there is never any money or fame attached then I wouldn't worry but if your selling it or sending it to festivals get the rights. Call a music rights service and see what it will cost. It's probably not in your budget so start looking for alternatives.
SK



Nik Nerburn said:
I completely understand what you're saying, but in all actuality, it's incredibly easy to get away with using copyrighted music in videos and selling them. So easy, in fact, that there has only been two rollerblading movies in recent memory that have actually gotten the rights to the songs featured in the video. Skateboarding and snowboarding videos are the same. They're just dudes slapping stuff together in their basement, just like you, and they might sell 30,000 dvds worldwide, CHOCK full of unliscensed music. See what I mean?
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Thanks for the responses...frankly I don't want to use the song without permission..regardless of whether I would get caught or not...it's just good to do the right thing...I just wish the process could be a little easier....

I found a site where I can seek permission..with about a 5 week waiting period....and a big application form etc...which I can understand for the reasons outlined..(ie. Ensuring the KKK etc doesn't rip off the music. for their own purposes etc.)

It's just that as video editing becomes increasingly mainstream...the masses will want to use music in their productions...the easier it becomes to do this legally...the more chance people will do the right thing...an option for legal "home video" use of music might be an option...

It took Australia a long time to be allowed to legally buy music online...which left law breaking as virtually the only option for people wanting to play commercial mp3's....(In fact in Australia it is still technically illegal for us to make mp3's for personal use of cd's we own..)

Anyway I'm all for using the stuff legally...and sites such as freeplaymusic.com and the Smartsound stuff are really a great resource...just would be nice to get a bit more music with vocals that one can use in a similar no fuss fashion.
 
totally agree - the worldwide industry needs to access this niche and make it very easy (even if it isnt always cheap) to get rights to music for films... i think the music industry actually stands to gain a lot from indy companys that have previously been "forced" to steal music because the process for getting rights is so esoteric.

cheers, good thread.
 
I was going to post this same question so I'm glad I did a search first. I do wedding videos, which are often edited using popular songs. Since the final video will be sold, but only to one client and never to be broadcast to a public audience or re-sold, I'm wondering whether the copyright laws apply.

I agree whole-heartedly with what wabbit said about creative works deserving protection. After all, those of us in the video production industry also deserve for our hard-earned work to be protected and respected. But again, please respond ...
 
mystico said:
I was going to post this same question so I'm glad I did a search first. I do wedding videos, which are often edited using popular songs. Since the final video will be sold, but only to one client and never to be broadcast to a public audience or re-sold, I'm wondering whether the copyright laws apply.

I agree whole-heartedly with what wabbit said about creative works deserving protection. After all, those of us in the video production industry also deserve for our hard-earned work to be protected and respected. But again, please respond ...
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Yes you are violating the copyright of the song by using it in the video without permission. This is not an example of fair use.
 
Music licensing has two parts: the artist's copyright and the record company's recording (and we all know the record companies have deep pockets and lotsa lawyers). As far as one-stop licensing, I thought that's what the Harry Fox agency was all about.

An alternative- I keep seeing new websites popping up with "pod-safe"/ royalty free music, I haven't looked that deep into it, but there's bound to be something similar for film as a lot of artists are very open to the exposure film brings.

-j

http://www.soundclick.com/jackthefool
 
jack the fool said:
As far as one-stop licensing, I thought that's what the Harry Fox agency was all about.[/URL]
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Harry Fox Agency stopped doing synchronisation licensing years ago.
 
Syncing to wedding video for money is a copyright violation (without permission). Despite this, the industry has been doing it for years, even flaunting it on their websites. To my knowledge not one lawsuit has been filed. My stance would be not to do it but others have no issue with it. Do it at your own risk (granted the risk is pretty minimal).

Cheers
 
In case there's any remaining doubt about this issue, check this month's EventDV magazine. There's a column there re: copyright law and such. Not sure if the article is available online, but worth the try ... www.eventdv.net
 
Theatre often also uses copyrighted music with out permission (smaller and regional theatres). Usually it is not much of an issue because two of the big legal moves are getting your profits and getting a cease and desist order. Theatre pretty much never makes a profit and by the time the legal process got far enough to do anything the show is closed. It's sort of an agreement to not look too close. That said any show that was about the music would probably get a call right away. I imagine wedding videos skate on the same ice. They don't loose any money and might even get some because of the exposure and thee isn't much money they could make by suing you, not enough to cover legal costs anyway. And then there is the bad PR of suing newly weds or a small theatre. But there is always the chance and you are violating the copyright.

This of course does not apply if your making a film that is going to get press and make money, and that is only fair. To put a little perspective on the theatre thing. I have worked for a theatre that did work at getting permissions. The paperwork never went through before the show closed and they just pretty much gave up. Only once in twenty some odd years was there ever a problem and that had more to do with a theatre that didn't ask nice and then shipped the show out and left everyone else to pick up the pieces. And all they demand was to stop using the piece, which we did.

SK
 
clearing music

clearing music

ah, another great example of how I don't know people got stuff done before the Web :)

I needed to clear a song by a guy named T. Coakley, called Monday Morning. I read the record label on the vinyl and it said Monday Morning (BMI) so I went to BMI.com and found it. There are two kinds of rights, publisher and master: 1. the actual song you want to use, say off the album, and 2. the song as it is written down on paper. (people use 2nd license by itself for stuff like Broadway shows and cover albums I guess)

song_1.jpg


song_2.jpg


song_3.jpg


song_4.jpg


Give 'em a call. Say what you are doing and that you will only play the movie at festivals. Then if its picked up nationally, you'll have to pay more (which your distributor will do). I think that's what Michael Moore did for My Hometown by Bruce Springsteen.

This is a great story of how the filmmakers of Mad Hot Ballroom cleared their music. Mandatory read and should be a sticky!
http://blog.stayfreemagazine.org/2005/06/mad_hot_ballroo.html

This guy knows his stuff. Includes sample clearance contract:
http://www.stevegordonlaw.com/clearing_tv_movies_video.htm

 
Has anyone tried www.artistserver.com? I was Googling for short film contests and one of the sites recommended using this site because the songs are "pre-cleared." I'm assuming this means that artists who post their songs here have given permission for use. I've signed up and have been perusing the site and listening to music. But so far I have not been able to find this mentioned on the site, or anything about the songs' licenses at all.
 
i did a lot of research on this and in my case i called the persons representation, their agent.

they told me to send them a copy of the finished piece and depending on the usage they might wave the usage all together.

the project ended up not getting made but it was a pretty big artist and their agent seemed very understanding of low budget.

i have bought a bunch of stuff from twistedtracks.com and right now they give you $50 just for trying out their site in credit towards music.

their stuff is all instrumental background stuff but it is a good resource.

matthew
 
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