Commercial shoot - 24 or 30?

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francheezie

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I'm shooting a commercial tomorrow and I'm wondering if I should shoot it at 24p or 30p? I guess it's more of an asthetic thing obviously, but I want it to look as pro as possible, and as much like a real commercial.

There is a slow sweeping crane movement at the beginning of the commercial and I think it might look better in 30p. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
 
Most high end commercials are shot on film so you might consider shooting 24. They were doing slow sweeping crane moves in film long before video was developed.
 
Is the client paying for the commercial? If so, I would shoot in 24p and 60i just in case the client can tell the difference. Call me paranoid but I've been shooting all the scenes twice for as long as I've had the camera.
I guess I've been waiting for the client to say "what's that weird look to the commercial" but it's never happened. I have had people say positive things about "the look" though.
 
shoot whatever makes it look the best. film can be shot at other speeds that 24p too, and often is pending what they are doing.
 
24p is the call then. If we've got time, I'll try to shoot it at 60 as well to have some comparison footage. Thanks you guys, I'll post the commercial when it's all edited.
 
If you aren't used to shooting 24p, I'd think it over. I takes a film based cinematography education, or lots of practice shooting 24p video, to make it look good enough for pro work. Watching pan speeds, esp. if there are lots of vertically edged objects in the scene (poles, edges of walls, contrasty lines, etc) are most important. People moving across the frame too fast is the worst though. Keeping them in the same part of the frame as they move is a core technique.
 
Most national commercials are shot on Panavision 35mm film but if your not used to film technique, as mentioned before, then you might consider shooting it in 30p to get a film like look. It will be more forgiving in terms of stuttering or bad object placement, if you haven't shot with the camera that much.
 
Just don't do whip pans with the camera and you should be fine. Avoid the ultra shaky cam look also.
Most people here seemed to be very concerned about strobing but in shooting movies and commercials it's only a real issue if you don't have someone to follow in the frame.
 
I'd ask the end user what they want. I would imagine that for TV you want the NTSC standard: 30 fps (29.97), edited in drop frame. It's quite possible you'll cause a lot of headaches in post shooting in 24. Talk to the post people before deciding!

Dan
www.DvcameraRigs.com
 
Hi,

The end user will have no idea what they want. That is why they hired you. Dan, care to elaborate on this remark?

danslak said:
It's quite possible you'll cause a lot of headaches in post shooting in 24.
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Television commercials have been shot in 24 fps and telecine with a 2:3 pulldown and edited on NLE for over a decade or more. Why would you tell someone 24p video with a 2:3 pulldown would cause a lot of headaches in post; that is simply inaccurate.

Perhaps you meant 24p advanced pulldown? Please advise.

Thanks,
Brian
 
thisiswells said:
Hi,

The end user will have no idea what they want. That is why they hired you. Dan, care to elaborate on this remark?


Television commercials have been shot in 24 fps and telecine with a 2:3 pulldown and edited on NLE for over a decade or more. Why would you tell someone 24p video with a 2:3 pulldown would cause a lot of headaches in post; that is simply inaccurate.

Perhaps you meant 24p advanced pulldown? Please advise.

Thanks,
Brian
Click to expand...

Well, first, since it's being shot on video, there is no Rank transfer. 2nd, if editing in 24, there is no drop-frame option, which will give an inaccurate running time in the spot. Which means editing in 30 drop frame. Maybe just fine. Maybe not. (Yes, commercials shot on film are transfered at 30 fps with the pull down, but is this an option in this case? That's something neither of us can answer). Francheezie gave no details about post, so I'm assuming he'll be handing the footage over to an editor. I disagree about post not knowing what they want. That's their job. It may be no problem shooting 24, 60, or whatever. But finding out that information from people that will ACTUALLY be working on the spot in post is much better than asking people on a forum who have absolutely no idea of the details of the job, equipment involved, etc. Again, probably not a problem shooting in 24, but why assume that and be screwed later? It's a simple thing to call up the post house and ask.

Dan
 
I agree it's probably best to check with the people who would be involved in post and the airing of the spot to confirm there's no problems or specific requirements.

Just to clarify a few items:
24p from the camera DOES include pulldown so I'm not sure what the issue is.
24p mode are recorded in non-drop timecode. If drop code is required they shoudl be able to replace it in post.
 
I just shot a comercial recently using 24p mode....the client and the station both commented saying they liked the "look". It's all preference tho I guess
 
Scottdvx100 said:
I agree it's probably best to check with the people who would be involved in post and the airing of the spot to confirm there's no problems or specific requirements.

Just to clarify a few items:
24p from the camera DOES include pulldown so I'm not sure what the issue is.

24p mode are recorded in non-drop timecode. If drop code is required they shoudl be able to replace it in post.
Click to expand...

The issue would be: Does the post house except a DV tape recorded in this format? Does it have to be transferred? Is there an extra cost to consider? Will you be pissing off the producer who might have to shell out more cash, and as a result never hire you again? There is so much more involved than what can technically be done.

As for Non-drop in 24: Absolutely right. But has he decided to shoot in 24? 60? As for 30, you're correct in that the editors can edit in drop-frame. I was simply trying to emphasize to Francheezi that there are more things to consider than what look a frame rate might give.

The larger issue I was trying to point out is still true. Whether a DP with questions about format, a sound man recording for a surround sound mix (check with the mixers; what do they need to do their job most effectively?), in my past life as a picture editor for features and television, I would often check with the sound editors and mixers about anything out of the ordinary to make their jobs easier and smoother. (This was especially true when they started editing on Protools from a sound head and splicing block, long before we started cutting picture digitally). My assistants would always check with any new negative cutters about requirements. In fact, checking with anybody that comes after you that has to deal with what they are given is simply a good idea. Especially nowdays when there are a multitude of formats, frame rates, etc.

Dan
www.DVcameraRigs.com
 
danslak said:
The issue would be: Does the post house except a DV tape recorded in this format? Does it have to be transferred? Is there an extra cost to consider? Will you be pissing off the producer who might have to shell out more cash, and as a result never hire you again? There is so much more involved than what can technically be done.
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What are you on about? I think you may be overdramatizing things. People shoot 24p every day of the week all around the world and do not run into the issues you have imagined in your head. You're scaring the inexperienced here for no good reason.

danslak said:
I disagree about post not knowing what they want. That's their job. It may be no problem shooting 24, 60, or whatever.
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So, let me get this straight, you're saying a cinematographer should pick a frame rate based off an editor's preference? That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard on these forums!

Brian
 
I'm not following the issues here myself. The only thing I would do up-front is educate the client on what they are getting in advance. But that's not really an issue in itself is it?

24p? No sweat for anyone. 60i? (Sounds of puking)
 
Educating the client is always good -- and necessary. I am confused how 24p with a 2:3 pulldown would be an agonizing mess for even the newest of beginners to edit with even consumerish software.

This conversation is relevant for me. I have an upcoming documentary shoot for which I will not be involved in the editing, other than perhaps a final color grading and quality control.

Should I be more involved in developing a post workflow? Am I being careless? I mean, I'm not shooting in 24pA, which could potentially cause a nightmare if they're not equipped to handle that pulldown, but 24p? ... As John said, "No sweat for anyone."
 
thisiswells said:
So, let me get this straight, you're saying a cinematographer should pick a frame rate based off an editor's preference? That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard on these forums!

Brian
Click to expand...

Not at all. I'm saying he should look into things down stream for any potential problems. My apologies if that wasn't clear in my post. As I said, I'm sure 24 fps is just fine and no problems at all. But since the original post seemed inexperienced, I was just trying to offer some practical advice.

Dan
 
Jeez....shoot a test!

Actually...I cant believe someone asks this question a day before a shoot. (and assumeably getting paid for it.)
 
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