CMOS & the RED camera

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filmguy123

Veteran
So after reading Barry's article on CMOS sensors... and seeing some of the footage, particularily that which suffers from Wobble...

It makes me wonder.. I don't hear anything about CMOS problems with the RED camera so much, or any pro's hesitating from using that. Why not?

What's the take on the RED camera and it's CMOS sensor?
 
Yes, I have been for a while. Just wondering what non red reservation people were thinking about the CMOS issues on RED. Do you think its a big deal? How do you think it will effect? If it's permissable on the RED, why not the EX1?
 
Different hardware implementation results in different degree of rolling shutter artifacts. It's not the same across different CMOS camera.
 
Well it seems to be an issue when you pan too quickly. I assume people are working around it. And if you're panning really fast I'm not sure an audience will notice or care. Audiences don't care about noise as much as DVXusers do. People sat through Blair Witch, The Celebration, and I'm sure they'll put up with a little skew.

Have you seen the Red footage without skew? It looks friggin' gorgeous. I'm not looking at/for skew when I see some of the stuff the camera is capable of.
 
filmguy123 said:
So after reading Barry's article on CMOS sensors... and seeing some of the footage, particularily that which suffers from Wobble...

It makes me wonder.. I don't hear anything about CMOS problems with the RED camera so much, or any pro's hesitating from using that. Why not?

What's the take on the RED camera and it's CMOS sensor?
Click to expand...

It has the same inherent problems that the other cameras that use CMOS chips and rolling shutters have. There's been lots of discussion about it since it first came up in Peter Jackson's "Crossing the Line" short from nearly a year ago. Some people say it's horrible. Some people say it's not that bad. Some people are coming up w/work arounds while others are just saying they'll use a different camera for certain shots if need be.

You probably don't hear much about it because the cameras haven't gotten into the mainstream yet so most of the first hand knowledge is from the relatively small Red user community. It's kinda like if only hardcore Panny/Sony/Apple/etc., guys were the main source of info on a new Panny/Sony/Apple product you'd hear a lot of good about the product and not a lot of bad.


-A
 
Red has also apparently improved the read/reset time so skew isn't as bad as "Crossing the Line." You could always ask Barry if the skew bothers him.
 
The Red has the same CMOS issues that every other CMOS camera has. They have improved the readout time so it's not quite as blatant as, say, the HV20! But the issues are still there, and this is just what you have to get used to if you want to go CMOS.

I just did some testing yesterday on a magnetic HMI, because someone was saying that the same "HMI safe" frame rates should apply to the Red, and I was like "er, I don't think so..." so I tested it. Magnetic HMIs can cause massive banding throughout the frame, just like they do on the HV20 and the EX1. This would not happen on CCD or film.

CMOS is CMOS, and if it has a rolling shutter, it's gonna have these same issues to one degree or another. Ain't no two ways about it, no matter what anyone says. They can tune it, but they can't eliminate it. The only way to eliminate it would be to ditch the rolling shutter and go with a global shutter.

You could always ask Barry if the skew bothers him.
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Lots of people seem to think that "rolling shutter = skew, and skew = rolling shutter" and that's that. Let me just say: skew is the least of the rolling shutter issues, and doesn't really bother me at all. A little lean here or there during a fast pan, usually not a big deal (unless you're doing tracking shots and compositing).

What bothers me about rolling shutter MUCH more than skew, is the way it interacts with ballasted light sources and the wobble and the partial exposure from flashes. Those are the dealbreakers that rule out using a rolling-shutter camera for certain uses.

If it's permissable on the RED, why not the EX1?
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Good question, and the answer to me is: because they're not going to be used for the same kind of job. The Red is meant to be used under controlled circumstances on a motion picture set, where any known issues can be dealt with. The Red isn't going to be out shooting press conferences and it's not going to be strapped to a mountain bike and it's not going to be shooting weddings. It's not going to be shooting documentary footage under old office building fluorescents. And it's not going to be used with old ebay $500 magnetic-ballast HMI's. Those are all scenarios that the EX1 or HV20 will find themselves in, and in those scenarios a rolling shutter absolutely will screw you over and ruin the shots.

The Red is a preposterously heavy package, I think mine, fully configured, weighs over 30 pounds. The sheer mass of it prevents a host of wobble issues. I took the Red up in a helicopter, sat it on a CineSaddle, and the resulting footage looks fine. That same type of scenario would have caused an HV20 or an EX1 to wobble like a bowl of jello.

In short: when someone's shooting on a Red, they're dictating the shooting circumstances. You can very easily say "no magnetic-ballast HMIs, we need electronic ballasts." Okay, simple -- that's what you'll get. I think HV20 or a V1U or an EX1 shooters are much more likely to be in scenarios where they cannot dictate the shooting circumstances and will therefore get "bitten" by the rolling shutter.

The Red is fantastic, no doubt. It's exquisite. With all that said, I still think the rolling shutter sucks bigtime.
 
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