Cloud/tree reflections in a car window - what to do when a polarizer won't cut it?

cudak888

cudak888

Active member
I'm currently trying to wrap my head around the problem of filming through a steeply-raked automobile window without encountering reflections from clouds and hard shadows from heavily tree-lined streets, as in the following shot:

larry_reflection.jpg



Endless research has failed to yield a widely-used solution. I've considered affixing a frosted piece of Plexiglass to a frame over the offending area to act as a neutral object to be reflected - not to mention a diffuser of the natural light above it - but I'm not certain whether this would be a wise idea on a moving car (given that shake from road vibrations or buffet from wind might cause the Plexiglass diffuser to become noticeable), nor is it the best solution.

Opinions, ideas, and advice appreciated.

-Kurt
 
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I'd suggest being aware of your angle of reflection firstly. If you can't find the right angle that works with your polarizer then my next suggestion would be to try and cut the light spilling onto the window. If you can rig some sort of black above the window, any light spilling in could then be controlled and you could effectively neutralize the reflection all together. Then just add lights to the shot as needed. I'm no expert, but every time I have a hard to deal with reflection, the answer is usually linked to finding the right angle or cutting the light creating the reflection so it no longer affects the shot.
 
I'd say the angle of reflection was somewhere around 70 degrees. Not ideal, but there is little I can do about controlling the angle in some of the moving shots, as the vehicle will be changing direction on occasion.

In short, you'd suggest removing the reflection/spill by using a black panel over the window, much in the same fashion as the diffuser I had in mind?

-Kurt
 
Yeah, if you can't find the right angle, I'd recommend putting up a black to cut that spill. Though if you can't add lights because you won't have a proper car rig then maybe try your diffusion idea. It should do roughly the same thing without cutting light on talent.
 
The more light you have inside, the less of a problem it will be. Large productions light the insides of cars very brightly, and typically from the outside.

Note, though, how orange your guy looks - this is likely a color temperature mismatch between the daylight and your lights on the inside. If that's not the look you're going for, you probably want to switch out your light source to something daylight-balanced.
 
Gobo the reflections, as suggested above (do whatever is necessary to stabilize the gobo), change the car to one with a steeper rake to the windscreen so that a polarizer can be used, remove the windscreen or change the shot . . . maybe even greenscreen the shot in studio.
Don't create a "catch 22" situation. Making a shot like this is difficult. Do whatever is necessary to make the shot, or change the shot.
Good luck.

P. S. Personally, I would vote for using a ND plexiglass gobo. It will give some reflection detail that is natural, but not a detraction. It is not expensive and is available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc.
 
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David Jimerson said:
The more light you have inside, the less of a problem it will be. Large productions light the insides of cars very brightly, and typically from the outside.

Note, though, how orange your guy looks - this is likely a color temperature mismatch between the daylight and your lights on the inside. If that's not the look you're going for, you probably want to switch out your light source to something daylight-balanced.
Click to expand...

I have one 500w tungsten on him from the bottom right; I knew the temperature would be off. It was an experiment in seeing whether light sources from the interior would offset the reflections any.

That said, I'm rather reluctant to add light to the exterior when working with these extremely bright daytime shoots. It seems counter-productive to add light (in certain situations, of course - not everywhere) that can be adequately lit from natural light sources, if said sources are diffused.

-Kurt
 
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The more light you add to the interior -- whether the light source is interior or exterior -- the less of a problem the reflections will be. If you make the interior brighter than the glare on the window, you will eliminate your problem (or mostly, anyway). When the lighting is yours, of course, you can control the angle it hits the window from. Diffused light is not necessarily better -- you could knock down the sharp outlines of the branches, etc., but it could still cause as much overall glare.

A 500w tungsten is really nothing against daytime light. A 500w HMI, which is far more light-efiicient, would be nothing, too. You need lots and lots of light.

That's why you see setups such as this:

HiliosCarRig.jpg


Not saying it's the appropriate setup, necessarily, for your purposes, but it should give you an idea of how much light is usually involved with that kind of shot.
 
If attaching gobos and adding more lights is too difficult or out of budget, have you considered shooting at a different time of day? or finding a street that is much more tree lined so there are fewer bright reflections?
 
Just rig a 4x floppy or a 6x solid above the car. Very simple and it will kill all of the reflections no problem, no need to fuss with polas or anything.

I shot this music video a while ago where we had to do a number of car rigs.

http://youtu.be/xGxax-TDrUE

At 11 seconds, there was one rig where we just rigged a 4x floppy above the windshield, then we used ND on the back window and hung duvatyne on the camera left side to act as negative fill. So while using bigger lights like David suggests is a very good way to do it, there are other cheaper options available.
 
Use a strong polarizer on the lens, like a True-Pol or an UltraPol. You'll be amazed by how much reflected light you will cut.
 
Easiest option is rig up a floppy if you want to kill all your tree detail, but perhaps you want to see the motion of the car clearer by little fragments of reflection darting across the windsscreen. If you smack up a 4 or 6'by floppy (Meat axe work great) than it'll kill it nice and easy. But if you want some detail grab a really heavy ND frame and rig it over top (If you use a heavy diff you'll loose that nice branch shape to give an idea of the environment he's driving through). This will also allow you to use less firepower inside the car giving a clearer image through glass and allow you to use smaller lamps that you'll probably have access. In this scenario biggest cost is getting the 4ft of heavy ND and some rigging; and if that's too much than perhaps time/type of day selection is needed as suggested earlier. Just food for thought.
Ad polar for good measure and shoot away.

Good luck!
 
LightBender said:
Easiest option is rig up a floppy if you want to kill all your tree detail, but perhaps you want to see the motion of the car clearer by little fragments of reflection darting across the windsscreen. If you smack up a 4 or 6'by floppy (Meat axe work great) than it'll kill it nice and easy. But if you want some detail grab a really heavy ND frame and rig it over top (If you use a heavy diff you'll loose that nice branch shape to give an idea of the environment he's driving through). This will also allow you to use less firepower inside the car giving a clearer image through glass and allow you to use smaller lamps that you'll probably have access. In this scenario biggest cost is getting the 4ft of heavy ND and some rigging; and if that's too much than perhaps time/type of day selection is needed as suggested earlier. Just food for thought.
Ad polar for good measure and shoot away.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thats a pretty great idea, but do you end up with double reflections, some through the ND, others from the reflections on the ND onto the windshield?
 
Just adjust your angles, so you're cutting light and aren't creating a direct bounce back, the ND material itself isn't too reflective and the fact that your supplementing a few additional lights in the interior, you should be able to find a the sweet spot where you're cutting enough and no double reflections. It'll just take a little bit of adjusting. Used it before and worked a treat, the only issue I had was I needed to punch in because our ND didn't cover the whole windshield and the jig was up. :) Still turned out alright.

to test for yourself, grab a small piece of ND, get a phone screen or better yet some thick dark glass. Use one of your household lights as your "sun". You can see how overbearing the reflection is and then 'cut' the light source with the ND. If the focus will be on the character it should help to give a bit of a lighter edge to any reflections from the ND and smooth out the glass reflections as a whole. Also on the day i think people are more likely to accept that the additional reflections (if you have any) are just part of the natural environment. As long as you don't get a dirty big Road reflection, which I don't think would be likely. Perhaps spray some de-shine on the ND for safe measure?:2vrolijk_08:
 
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