Client getting second opinion (problem?)

thekeygun

thekeygun

Well-known member
I'm in a situation with a new client and i'm not sure what the best way to deal with it is, was hoping to gain some insight from the professionals of this board who may have dealt with the same.



I go into her office and she has another editor in there. I'm showing her footage and the editor bashes the content that i'm showing to the client. The editor has no idea how to deal with p2 footage, avchd footage, and its clear he's trying to alpha male me out of the equation.

I have no idea why she invited another editor over when she new I needed to show her footage. I'm sure its that she doesn't trust her own choices...but its really frustrating to have to deal with another person, especially when that person isn't as knowledgeable as I am. I don't mind if she second guesses me herself, in fact that is what i'm looking for...FEEDBACK.

She wanted me to send the other editor my final project for review...and shaved 100 bucks off of my fee for the edit.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Its clear she doesn't trust her own choices so i'm going to have to deal with this at every step of the process with her.

I'm leaning towards not working for her anymore, but I still have to finish this edit.

Do any of you have any suggestions or similar stories?
 
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I've been in a similar situation and even quit a film once because of an overzealous 3rd party after trying to make the director understand WHY it was improper and unacceptable having this 3rd party butting in all the time.

Just quit. She obviously doesn't get it and nothing good will come of it. Wishy-washy people as clients usually does not work out too well especially if you're getting nickel and dimed on the work.

Other nightmare client types:

The inept producer - who imposes unrealistic constraints and expects gold.

The auteur - who over-analyzes every aspect of a project to the point of reducing it to 100% preconceived garbage.

The noob with an ego - who won't listen to professionals and holds to some grandiose vision that they could never bring to the screen without listening to professionals.

The flip-flopper - who decides they don't like the work even after they signed off on it.

.
 
I thought a little more about this and you're right. She clearly isn't respecting my expertise.

Close one door another opens...
 
thekeygun said:
I'm in a situation with a new client and i'm not sure what the best way to deal with it is, was hoping to gain some insight from the professionals of this board who may have dealt with the same.

some pertinent background info:

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
She wanted me to send the other editor my final project for review...and shaved 100 bucks off of my fee for the edit.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Its clear she doesn't trust her own choices so i'm going to have to deal with this at every step of the process with her.

I'm leaning towards not working for her anymore, but I still have to finish this edit.

Do any of you have any suggestions or similar stories?
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Is there a contract here? How is it she's shaving off $100?

At this stage you're justing showing them an edit, not the finished product, right?

I'd tell her that you will be glad to forward the 3rd party editor a copy as soon as the project is done and you get paid. Your agreement is, afterall, with her. She's cutting the check, so I would not take any direction from anyone but her. If she wants to insert this other editor into the process. will have to possibly rework your edit to meet his standards??? Well OK, but that's more time and effort for you, so you should get compensated for it.
 
Just a verbal contract. She made it very clear in the beginning I was to be paid cash, and that I wouldn't "report" it.

The other editor made a suggestion that WILL take more time to edit. I have to rework sound, get more footage, and ultimately spend more time on the edit...of which I explained to her. She shaved 100 off the edit because the other editor said these changes were minor. :Drogar-Angry(DBG):

At this stage I was just showing her the audible footage that we got based on the sound issues in the environment I was shooting in. Not even a first cut, but more of a rough draft. This is because she had no idea what she wanted the final product to look like. I don't usually give clients so much room and this many options. I gave options to this client because if she doesn't like what she asked me to do, then its her 'fault'. I can change the edit and then charge her. She's always asking for more, more, more. Just trying to create clear boundaries.

I have the feeling she brought this other editor in, just incase she wanted to rework the edit.
 
Stick by your guns as best you can, on the pricing. Betcha that "other" editor wouldn't do the job for the price she's pushing.

I have had a few jobs like that. As a result I don't let my clients in on the editing process. They typically do not care or understand it. Even "minor" changes can still consume a lot of time. Changing transition styles, or adding another clip, etc. take time to do and then re-author another DVD, etc.
 
Who owns the show and what does your contract say regarding final-cut authority? Are you a work-for-hire or are you producing / co-producing the taster / pilot?

e
 
She owns the show but this show is not on paper, nor does she have a 'budget' for the show. All monies are coming out of her personal bank account.

Contract is verbal, final cut was in my hands. Which is why I was confused about her bringing someone else in the mix.

I'm a work for hire.

This isn't a pilot, but this specific piece will be used to generate funds for another project. It will also be used for her reality show.

She does not have a business plan, or even know what her final output will be; tv or web.
She's asked me what her shooting standard should be, and I've specifically not made any decisions for her. Its clear she's trying to start a prod comp with my help, but doesn't want to pay standard rates.

So far she has just hired me to shoot....but liked my work so much she was interested in having me do an edit for her.

When she does pay me...she complains. I just tell her that its up to her to find a budget for this.
 
If you don't have a contract stating that you have ownership of the project or creative control therein and she's funding it and payed you as a work for hire, she can do whatever she wants.
 
Erik Olson said:
If you don't have a contract stating that you have ownership of the project or creative control therein and she's funding it and payed you as a work for hire, she can do whatever she wants.
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I have not been paid for this project yet. So you are saying she has creative control, even if I haven't been given a dime?
 
Why don't you both keep the material? Seeing as there is no contract to define it either way. Is this a project you would have done on your own without her? If not, it looks more like a co-production and you both should keep the material, agree to disagree, split amicably, and move on.

Michael
 
If she is the creator of the project, and it is a work-for-hire, then you are going to have a hard time convincing anyone from a legal perspective. There is this prevailing advice that if you're not paid, the footage is your's. I'm not an attorney, but I know you can't do anything commercial with that media. The entire project is commercially hamstrung by legal attachments and that's what matters.

You need to sit down with this person and hammer out a legal relationship which defines the parties roles in same. Short of this, you need to be paid what you are due and walk away. In the future, maybe you'll put more emphasis on contracts and chalk this one up to a lesson learned?
 
Erik Olson said:
If she is the creator of the project, and it is a work-for-hire, then you are going to have a hard time convincing anyone from a legal perspective. There is this prevailing advice that if you're not paid, the footage is your's. I'm not an attorney, but I know you can't do anything commercial with that media. The entire project is commercially hamstrung by legal attachments and that's what matters.

You need to sit down with this person and hammer out a legal relationship which defines the parties roles in same. Short of this, you need to be paid what you are due and walk away. In the future, maybe you'll put more emphasis on contracts and chalk this one up to a lesson learned?
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But remember, "work-for-hire" cannot be based on a verbal agreement. Unless the person creating the copyrightable work is a bona fide employee acting within the scope of their regular job duties, copyright law says that in order for the work produced to be considered a 'work-for-hire' there must be a valid written contract that explicitly states that it is. When a freelancer is 'hired' to do a certain job, the fact he is being paid DOES NOT make him an employee - instead of being an employee he is actually the vendor of a service and the client is his customer. As such, unless there's a written agreement stating he is producing a work-for-hire and transferring copyright in writing, the freelancers owns the copyright to the materials he produced. Without such an agreement he only becomes an employee with the work automatically becoming work-for-hire if he falls into the IRS guidelines that differentiate between an employee and an independent contractor - working under the direction and supervision of the employer and under the conditions set by them, paid regular wages subject to tax withholding, paid a salary or a wage based on time on the job rather than receiving a fee for the final product, works at the place and during the hours directed by the employer, does not accept work from other employers, etc. IF you are a news cameraman working full-time for a TV network, the footage you shoot is a work-for-hire and the rights are owned by the network. If you are a freelance videographer hired by Big Company to make a instructional video for their new Employee Safety Program, it is not a work-for-hire unless your contract says that it is, even though you are being paid to make the program. As a rule of thumb, if at the end of the year he receives a W-2 for his taxes on the monies he earned, he's an employee ... if he gets a 1099 or nothing at all, he's not. If he's not an employee, 'work-for-hire' engagements must be in writing.
 
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Thanks everyone.

I'm not going to do anything with the footage anyway. Like I said before, i'll finish this project then walk away.

and yes a formal contract on either end would have given this situation better boundaries.
 
Let me make a few suggestions for the future, based on experience here.

Always ask for at least 1/4-1/3 upon commencing the project. The difference in what you ask depends upon how you plan to deliver the final product; eg. are you providing DVD duplication.

The next payment is due upon completion of principal photography.

The third payment is due upon completion of editing, with the option of offering the client one session of minor editing revisions. At this stage, no major revisions are permitted. If there is no duplication involved, this is where you demand final payment before turning over the master.

Doing it this way avoids most of the problems you describe.
 
Jim_Behl said:
Let me make a few suggestions for the future, based on experience here.

Always ask for at least 1/4-1/3 upon commencing the project. The difference in what you ask depends upon how you plan to deliver the final product; eg. are you providing DVD duplication.

The next payment is due upon completion of principal photography.

The third payment is due upon completion of editing, with the option of offering the client one session of minor editing revisions. At this stage, no major revisions are permitted. If there is no duplication involved, this is where you demand final payment before turning over the master.

Doing it this way avoids most of the problems you describe.
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With most of my clients I put everything in writing. Therefore I don't usually have this problem.

This was a new client and she specifically didn't want anything in writing. Clearly a red flag.
 
I disagree. If you did NOT sign a Work-for-Hire Agreement then technically you are also a part holder of the piece. I know this from using it as leverage on TV shows where we were not paid, I threatened the producers that if we were not paid before airing I would contact the station or network that the copyright was "clouded". That gets one paid in TV land because they are worried the sponsors will back out. Talk to an attorney who specializes in IP, intellectual property. Usually the first consultation is free.

I shoot for non-fiction TV shows and they are smart enough to make me sign a Work-for-Hire before shooting, especially the LA ones.

But getting to the larger issue: ALL clients can be divided into one of two categories:

• Those paying with their OWN money.
• Those paying with the COMPANY'S money.

You always want to work with the latter, always.

Regards,
 
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