Clerks, honestly, what do you think?
- Thread starter Jeremy Ordan
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Jeremy Ordan
Major Contributor
I can say that I'm honestly a little surprised to hear everyone ripping on Kevin Smith. Personally I have always enjoyed his movies and the reason that I started this thread was to see, ten years after the release, how people interpret Clerks. I love this energy that has come up though. I am a huge fan of Dogma, mostly because as someone who went back to school to get an additional degree in religious studies, I appreciate Kevin dealing with his religious opinions in a more approachable manner than say Mel Gibson.
That being said, Clerks, in my opinion, is an extremely watchable film despite the fact that he has five minute shots of two people just standing there talking.
Now, to say that Kevin Smith is not a good director is something I actually disagree with. He is not a complete director, I agree with that, but he is very talented in motivated his actors to deliver the performance that he needs. My example: Ben Affleck (see my signature for my opinion on Affleck) is watchable and enjoyable in Smith movies. Point proven right there. I don't believe that Smith is experienced or knowledgeable with moving the camera, but I think that his written material overcomes that. He is an example of the whole geek chic thing. Star Wars, comic books, dick and fart jokes, getting high... I mean that sums up the majority of his work.
I think that Chasing Amy is a great film, Dogma is good, Mallrats is endearing as a sophomore effort. Jay and Silent Bob, well, yeah, sucked, but made me laugh. Jersey Girl? That was crap.
All things being equal though, I think he is a good writer. His Hollywood track record is solid, he has never lost a studio money (don't cite Mallrats, they made money off the DVD market).
Now Clerks 2, bad idea. I will most likely see it, but I think it's going to suck. I don't know why he's making it, but from watching the BTS stuff, yeah, it's going to suck.
And now that I have gone around my asshole to get to my elbow, I really do think that Clerks works in spite of itself. Jimmerson said something that I never thought of, but really rings more true than anything else (and also talks directly to me and my projects). Kevin Smith is afraid to move the camera. I really believe that his fear limited what he did with this project. If you look at the final scene where Dante is fighting with his girlfriend he tries to swing the camera back and forth between them, as if a third person is witnessing this, and it just doesn't work for the film. He likes the static shots either because of fear of moving the camera and messing up these marathon takes or because he is intimidated by the technical difficulties. Despite this, Clerks works in spite of it.
Why? I think because of the dialogue, it keeps you engrossed in the film and wondering what will happen next.
Then again, this is all just my opinion and what do I know (I'm intimidated to move the camera sometimes)
That being said, Clerks, in my opinion, is an extremely watchable film despite the fact that he has five minute shots of two people just standing there talking.
Now, to say that Kevin Smith is not a good director is something I actually disagree with. He is not a complete director, I agree with that, but he is very talented in motivated his actors to deliver the performance that he needs. My example: Ben Affleck (see my signature for my opinion on Affleck) is watchable and enjoyable in Smith movies. Point proven right there. I don't believe that Smith is experienced or knowledgeable with moving the camera, but I think that his written material overcomes that. He is an example of the whole geek chic thing. Star Wars, comic books, dick and fart jokes, getting high... I mean that sums up the majority of his work.
I think that Chasing Amy is a great film, Dogma is good, Mallrats is endearing as a sophomore effort. Jay and Silent Bob, well, yeah, sucked, but made me laugh. Jersey Girl? That was crap.
All things being equal though, I think he is a good writer. His Hollywood track record is solid, he has never lost a studio money (don't cite Mallrats, they made money off the DVD market).
Now Clerks 2, bad idea. I will most likely see it, but I think it's going to suck. I don't know why he's making it, but from watching the BTS stuff, yeah, it's going to suck.
And now that I have gone around my asshole to get to my elbow, I really do think that Clerks works in spite of itself. Jimmerson said something that I never thought of, but really rings more true than anything else (and also talks directly to me and my projects). Kevin Smith is afraid to move the camera. I really believe that his fear limited what he did with this project. If you look at the final scene where Dante is fighting with his girlfriend he tries to swing the camera back and forth between them, as if a third person is witnessing this, and it just doesn't work for the film. He likes the static shots either because of fear of moving the camera and messing up these marathon takes or because he is intimidated by the technical difficulties. Despite this, Clerks works in spite of it.
Why? I think because of the dialogue, it keeps you engrossed in the film and wondering what will happen next.
Then again, this is all just my opinion and what do I know (I'm intimidated to move the camera sometimes)
spencer
Well-known member
I think I watched Dogma first when my brother brought it home from Blockbuster. His description of "two angels trying to reenter heaven" made it sound like some weird drama, but boy was I excited to see that it wasn't. I really enjoyed it, and ran out and rented Mallrats.
Considering I was in 6th grade at the time, I think this was the right path. After seeing and loving it (please remember-6th grade), I saw Clerks and continued to enjoy his franchise. I was psyched for Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (come to think of it, this was when I first got cable internet too, making this 12 month period a rather poignant time in my life) and, once again, loved it.
This was before I was converted by the likes of mainly Quentin Tarantino to the army of cinematic style. All I knew was that Smith's movies made me laugh and we're fairly good story wise. I feel that his films still for the time have a lasting effect on me, though my favorites have changed from Mallrats and Jay and Silent Bob to Chasing Amy and Clerks (Dogma has always been in the middle). I don't appreciate his style of directing really, but his drive and his rather frank personality (you don't need to call Smith a hack, Hudson, he calls himself a hack or some variation of a hack enough times for everyone to know that he knows his limits), and I still can't get over a certain charm that all of his films retain. Chasing Amy isn't the funniest movie, but I'll be damned if it isn't one of my favorites.
It's a complex view I have on Smith. I really enjoy him, but can't explain why other than to say "He's funny." I never worked retail, wanted to hook up with a lesbian, and I certainly was never the basis for a movie that was receiving flack on the internet, but i can relate in a way. It's weird.
As for Clerks 2, I had major reservations when hearing about production. Smith started saying it was gonna be small, and funny, with no big wink wink cameoes a la his last couple of films and stuff. Then, all of a sudden it's blogs about Jason Lee, Ben Affleck, Wanda Sykes, and Kevin Weisman doing cameoes (I was never opposed to the casting of Rosario Dawson though)
Then I found out they weren't even working at the ****ing Quickstop anymore. I thought that was the last straw.
Then, (I can't stand my ****ing diction, I use way to many thens and ands) I watched this video : http://clerks2.com/movies/goodbadman560.mov
I thus decided to give the flick a second chance.
The teaser only solidified my beliefs that it will at least be enjoyable. The first thing I noticed was the considerable amount of grain and the low quality of the picture (I mean, not in a bad way, almost in a stylized way). The first thing I thought of was Chasing Amy, the awesome flick that Kevin made after the bomb that was Mallrats for a very miniscule sum of money. apparently this was made for only a small amount as well. Maybe he really is trying to go back into his roots and pull out another funny and poignant movie that the same generation that was appealed to in the first Clerks will get. In essence, maybe he has finally grown up.
But that's all a maybe, and I'll reserve judgement for the movie.
But I really cannot wait to see it.
Considering I was in 6th grade at the time, I think this was the right path. After seeing and loving it (please remember-6th grade), I saw Clerks and continued to enjoy his franchise. I was psyched for Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (come to think of it, this was when I first got cable internet too, making this 12 month period a rather poignant time in my life) and, once again, loved it.
This was before I was converted by the likes of mainly Quentin Tarantino to the army of cinematic style. All I knew was that Smith's movies made me laugh and we're fairly good story wise. I feel that his films still for the time have a lasting effect on me, though my favorites have changed from Mallrats and Jay and Silent Bob to Chasing Amy and Clerks (Dogma has always been in the middle). I don't appreciate his style of directing really, but his drive and his rather frank personality (you don't need to call Smith a hack, Hudson, he calls himself a hack or some variation of a hack enough times for everyone to know that he knows his limits), and I still can't get over a certain charm that all of his films retain. Chasing Amy isn't the funniest movie, but I'll be damned if it isn't one of my favorites.
It's a complex view I have on Smith. I really enjoy him, but can't explain why other than to say "He's funny." I never worked retail, wanted to hook up with a lesbian, and I certainly was never the basis for a movie that was receiving flack on the internet, but i can relate in a way. It's weird.
As for Clerks 2, I had major reservations when hearing about production. Smith started saying it was gonna be small, and funny, with no big wink wink cameoes a la his last couple of films and stuff. Then, all of a sudden it's blogs about Jason Lee, Ben Affleck, Wanda Sykes, and Kevin Weisman doing cameoes (I was never opposed to the casting of Rosario Dawson though)
Then I found out they weren't even working at the ****ing Quickstop anymore. I thought that was the last straw.
Then, (I can't stand my ****ing diction, I use way to many thens and ands) I watched this video : http://clerks2.com/movies/goodbadman560.mov
I thus decided to give the flick a second chance.
The teaser only solidified my beliefs that it will at least be enjoyable. The first thing I noticed was the considerable amount of grain and the low quality of the picture (I mean, not in a bad way, almost in a stylized way). The first thing I thought of was Chasing Amy, the awesome flick that Kevin made after the bomb that was Mallrats for a very miniscule sum of money. apparently this was made for only a small amount as well. Maybe he really is trying to go back into his roots and pull out another funny and poignant movie that the same generation that was appealed to in the first Clerks will get. In essence, maybe he has finally grown up.
But that's all a maybe, and I'll reserve judgement for the movie.
But I really cannot wait to see it.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Nice take Spencer
You're right. I don't need to call him a hack; but then again, I'm just being kind.
You're right. I don't need to call him a hack; but then again, I'm just being kind.
ExtremeSleuth
Veteran
Luis Caffesse said:
thanks. i thought i remembered it being on hi8. must have been mistaken. thanks for the info.
spencer
Well-known member
John_Hudson said:
It seems fair to call him a hack, because, well, he did make Jay and Silent Bob. But seriously, if my opinions were opposite of what they are, I'd still not push the fact that I think he's a hack, just because whenever I think of Kevin Smith being flamed, I think of the imdb message boards. Not just the Smith one, the boards in general. Jesus Christ... I mean... Jesus.
By the way, has anyone heard about this movie called Catch and Release? Smith's got a supporting role in it, and it seems like he's just being himself in the preview, but it's kinda cool to see him in something other than a trench coat or a bowling shirt. It does seem like a major chick flick (Jennifer Garner is the lead, and it's about her coping with her fiancee dieing and having to move in with his friends), and the whole movie is played out through the trailer, but I may see it just to see how Kevin does in a film that's not his. Just wanted to see if anyone has info on that and or opinions.
ExtremeSleuth
Veteran
i saw the trailer for catch and release. it doesnt look too bad IMO
Luis Caffesse
Admin
I saw Clerks in the theater - opening day.
I laughed, thought it was pretty damn funny overall - but as soon as I walked out my first thought was -
"man, if he can get THAT released then I've GOT to be able to get a movie out there."
FLASHFORWARD - Ten years later.
He's working on his 7th feature.
Me? I'm just now working on the script to my first.
Say what you will about the guys movies - he's gotten them done, they've made money - and he's still working.
You mentioned talent as being part of the equation John - I sometimes think that tenacity and perseverance might count for more.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of his movies, never have been. But I do respect the work he put in to getting himself where he is today. He made Clerks out of spit and polish, and it paid off.
I laughed, thought it was pretty damn funny overall - but as soon as I walked out my first thought was -
"man, if he can get THAT released then I've GOT to be able to get a movie out there."
FLASHFORWARD - Ten years later.
He's working on his 7th feature.
Me? I'm just now working on the script to my first.
Say what you will about the guys movies - he's gotten them done, they've made money - and he's still working.
You mentioned talent as being part of the equation John - I sometimes think that tenacity and perseverance might count for more.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of his movies, never have been. But I do respect the work he put in to getting himself where he is today. He made Clerks out of spit and polish, and it paid off.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Luis
You are absolutely correct. Getting off one's ass and doing it is probably the biggest factor alone. I wrestle daily with my lazy armchair filmmaker arse ! That's the difference right there. There are people on this site that are really doing it and then there's one's like me who are doing nothing.
Spencer ---
The IMDB boards ? LOL Those boards are insane.
There isn't any flame going on here; just calling it like I see and my own personal opinion. I can come up with other words; the bottom line is that he makes poo pooe.
Laughingly the Jay and Silent Bob film is the reason to joke about; but really... and Dogma was just so bad it was painful to even watch
---
I read that Smith said "... his directing style wasn't really "visual" enough to pull off a big-budget action movie." in relation to THE GREEN HORNET and I thought of something Tarantino said on the Kill Bill V1 DVD about "...a director who can make a great action film is a sign of a good director." (I'll dig up exact quote tonight) because he thought that a really good action film is hard to do I suppose.
That kind of makes sense if you think of the great true action films and the directors behind them.
Let's face it:
Clerks was a fun indiependent film that turned heads and made a mark on cinema; but Smith never lived up that hype or potential. I can see where people like the idea and vibe of his Viewaskew universe and the whole Clerks stigma but how long can that be ridden ?
Apparently a decade at least
You are absolutely correct. Getting off one's ass and doing it is probably the biggest factor alone. I wrestle daily with my lazy armchair filmmaker arse ! That's the difference right there. There are people on this site that are really doing it and then there's one's like me who are doing nothing.
Spencer ---
The IMDB boards ? LOL Those boards are insane.
There isn't any flame going on here; just calling it like I see and my own personal opinion. I can come up with other words; the bottom line is that he makes poo pooe.
Laughingly the Jay and Silent Bob film is the reason to joke about; but really... and Dogma was just so bad it was painful to even watch
---
I read that Smith said "... his directing style wasn't really "visual" enough to pull off a big-budget action movie." in relation to THE GREEN HORNET and I thought of something Tarantino said on the Kill Bill V1 DVD about "...a director who can make a great action film is a sign of a good director." (I'll dig up exact quote tonight) because he thought that a really good action film is hard to do I suppose.
That kind of makes sense if you think of the great true action films and the directors behind them.
Let's face it:
Clerks was a fun indiependent film that turned heads and made a mark on cinema; but Smith never lived up that hype or potential. I can see where people like the idea and vibe of his Viewaskew universe and the whole Clerks stigma but how long can that be ridden ?
Apparently a decade at least
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
That an interesting point.
Now let's be real for a moment. Bay is a good director; he makes action films that are off the charts. Can we deny that The Rock, Armegeddon, Bad Boy's and Pearl Harbor are not solid ACTION films ?
His films do lack substance but what woud we get if he took himself more seriously and atttempted to come down to earth ? I bet he would deliver something nice if he would just slow down and give us something other than eye candy
Now let's be real for a moment. Bay is a good director; he makes action films that are off the charts. Can we deny that The Rock, Armegeddon, Bad Boy's and Pearl Harbor are not solid ACTION films ?
His films do lack substance but what woud we get if he took himself more seriously and atttempted to come down to earth ? I bet he would deliver something nice if he would just slow down and give us something other than eye candy
ExtremeSleuth
Veteran
John_Hudson said:
i dont know if you knew this, and i'm not trying to be smug or anything at all just fyi after clerks 2 he isn't doing the jay and silent bob movie. he's going on to do some other things.. no idea what they are but this is the last jay and silent bob movie... again just fyi. so after this he's going to try and get away from the clerks stuff...
Jeremy Ordan
Major Contributor
I was agreeing with Hudson on every point until he mentioned that Pearl Harbor was a great film. C'mon, I wouldn't wipe my arse with that piece of ****, it would never get clean.
I like kevin smith, but have we seen him do anything that has really challenged him?
I like kevin smith, but have we seen him do anything that has really challenged him?
Blaine
Mr. Hollywood
John_Hudson said:
The Rock was watch-able as was at least the 1st half of The Island, but I can't go along with him being a good director. Adequate, perhaps. But there's a lot better action directors out there: John McTiernan, Richard Donner, Andrew Davis and Antoine Fuqua to mention a few.
mule ferguson
Well-known member
Go Panthers 2006!
Waiting for my HVX and the Panthers to go to the Super Bowl.
Which will come first?
The movie I did not see, but it sounds like a wonderfull idea. No cuts. Tell it like it is.
Mule Ferguson
Pumpkin Creek Video
Waiting for my HVX and the Panthers to go to the Super Bowl.
Which will come first?
The movie I did not see, but it sounds like a wonderfull idea. No cuts. Tell it like it is.
Mule Ferguson
Pumpkin Creek Video
spencer
Well-known member
John- I get it, I'm just in denial because I wanna live in a world where everyone likes everything I like. But that would get boring. Such a connundrum.
But what is it exactly that you didn't like about Dogma? As someone who struggles with religious beliefs a lot, I really liked the parts that would touch in on what seemed to be Smith's personal arguments on the subject, such as when Chris Rock explains that Jesus gets mad about wars in his name and how you should take a good idea and not turn it into something to fight about. I'm just curious to hear what you have to say in depth about it. I can understand the weirdness and strange characters, but you really couldn't find any redeeming qualities of the movie at all?
And dude, Ger, Quickstop isn't there anymore? I thought RST closed down, but the Quickstop too? DRAG.
But what is it exactly that you didn't like about Dogma? As someone who struggles with religious beliefs a lot, I really liked the parts that would touch in on what seemed to be Smith's personal arguments on the subject, such as when Chris Rock explains that Jesus gets mad about wars in his name and how you should take a good idea and not turn it into something to fight about. I'm just curious to hear what you have to say in depth about it. I can understand the weirdness and strange characters, but you really couldn't find any redeeming qualities of the movie at all?
And dude, Ger, Quickstop isn't there anymore? I thought RST closed down, but the Quickstop too? DRAG.
HorseFilms
Look ma no hands
I find myself watching An Evening with Kevin Smith (a 2-disc set of speaches/Q&A sessions he made at various college campuses) more than anything else he's done. The man is hilarious in that. I'd recommend that set to anyone. The stories he tells are priceless.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
TheYankee said:
I said it was a solid action film. Here is the quote:
So I guess we're back to 100% agreeance ? :laugh:
With Dogma, Spencer, I just found it a complete bore. Bad casting, bad filmmaking, bad execution, bad story. Just didn't vibe for me whatsoever. A complete mess.
To clarify (Blaine), I do not think BAY is a great director. He is more than adequate though and I'd even say he was better than 'Good'. Man's raked in $1,913,025,007 in 6 film's ? He's doing something right even if us 'artiste's don't think his films carry any weight. :lipsrseal :huh:
I will take John McTiernan or Richard Donner anyday over BAY however ! :thumbsup:
Blaine
Mr. Hollywood
spencer said:
I think we ALL feel this way. I love the fact that we can disagree and still remain civil with one another, though. I also find it amazing that we can agree on so many films and directors and disagree on so many others. Taste is such an arbitrary thing.
John_Hudson said:
I'd love to disagree with you on that BUT I use the same arguement with other directors/actors to make my points occasionally so I won't be a hypocrite. Box office DOES count for something. It's the democratic voice of the movie goer unlike the Academy Awards. :thumbsup: