CLAYTON! HELP!!!

STORYTELLER32

STORYTELLER32

Well-known member
Clayton! Oh wizard of FCP! Please help!

When I went to output my edited timeline to my mini-dv tape (on my cannon elura) I was in shock to see my footage suddenly having a "video look" to it. It no longer had the film like movement quality that 24 fps gives you. Looks more like Canon XL1 footage instead of DVX-100.

I'm wondering if this has to do with the settings I captured the footage at? Here's what my captured and editing sequence settings are prior to print to tape:

Captured at DV NTSC 48 khz Anamorphic

Editing timebase 29.97 field dominance lower (even)

compressor: dv/dvcpro - NTSC

Now mind you, it looks like 24 fps in FCP4 and only looks like video footage when I output to tape.

I tried to fix it by creating a new sequence timeline with either 24 or 23.98 as my sequence preset settings and copying the original sequence and pasting it there. I had to render the whole sequence again, but in the end, it only gave me choppy footage that wouldn't even record when I tried to print it to tape.

Is it even possible to alter the settings in a new sequence timeline, copy my sequence and paste it into that timeline and avoid recapturing my source footage to my hard drive? Or do I need to start from scratch?? If it is possible, PLEASE detail what I need to do.

Forever your slave if you can help...
Storyteller32
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

Hi - So can I call you Jordan now? ;) I'd be happy to try and help - let me see if I follow what you've done.

I'm assuming this was shot in 24p Normal Pulldown on the DVX100, right? - and this is why you are expecting a 'film-look' on output. (FWIW, even 60i material will have somewhat of a film-like temporal look to it in FCP canvas/viewer windows, but what you see played out thru firewire is what you've actually got.)

But if it was shot at 24fps and just edited at 29.97 with the pulldown left in place, it *should* still have a 24fps look to it. (This should be the case irregardless of what camera/deck/device you use for output.) Also, if this was the intended approach, then it sounds like all of the steps/settings you've done thus far are correct.

When you say it looks like normal video now, are you just looking at the Elura LCD or on a TV monitor? Does the entire program look wrong or only certain sections?

The only other thing I can think of is if you have a lot of 'animated' material in the edit and when it has to render this it is doing it at 29.97 with fields. (By 'animated' I mean anything that moves the image thru space - a keyframed zoom or pan for example; or any transitions like wipes or slides.)

Could you get back with some more details and we can see if there's anything that's been overlooked? Also, anyone else have any ideas?

HTH,
Clayton
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

Ok, you answered it for me already. I went back and looked at my source tape on my television and compared that to the output footage. Seems your statement regarding the 'film like temporal look' in the FCP canvas/viewer was the answer. I've been living with the edit timeline so long I forgot what the original look of the footage was like. ::)

Add to that the fact that my TV (sony Wega) adds a crispness to the edges of my footage and it created an even more "video like" appearance than I've been used to seeing for the past several months. (feeling like an idiot here:-[)

I don't suppose there's a way to adjust my final output to retain that additional temporal look?

Thanks and sorry...
Jordan
(st32)
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

No sweat Jordan, I'm glad you figured it out. And don't feel bad, we've all been there - and for that matter get back 'there' pretty regularly... ;)

BTW - The comic art on your site looks great. Not mention the storyboards...

Good luck on the project,
Clayton
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

Hey Clayton,
My DP on the shoot tells me that "temporal film-like movement" you were talking about getting in FCP is because FCP is actually displaying the movie in 24P due to the advanced recording method that the DVX uses. When you go back to tape, it's in 30i, extrapolated 2-3 style from the 24P.

Is there a way to record the straight 24p I'm seeing in the canvas to tape? Or can I only get that if I output to DVD or a quicktime file?

-Jordan
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

theres no way to record 24p to tape .. what standard is there for doing so ? dv ntsc is 29.976 and nothing else.
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

you can create a 24P DVD--search through the posts & you should find plenty of direction on how to do it.

never trust the little playback windows in Final Cut--they're not meant to give a proper output of what your work actually looks like, just an approximation to allow you to edit. If you're not working with an NTSC monitor, you really should be. Even if it's not a pro monitor, a little 13" Sony trinitron with a flat tube will work fine. You can get them at Best Buy for a couple hundred bucks. Always better than having to wait until your output to tape to see what your movie actually looks like.
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

Hi Jordan,

Just saw your message. Ditto on Jay's comments. Depending on the speed of your machine, FCP may not be showing all of the frames in the viewer/canvas windows during playback (even though it is not technically 'dropping frames'.) This faux lower frame rate may be what you are seeing.

Although you can create a 24p DVD, whenever it is viewed on an NTSC monitor (ie - any TV in the U.S.) it is still going to be playing at 29.97 - recent DVD players are just able to do the pulldown as they playback from the disk. (FCP will do this on the fly with a variety of pulldowns when viewing the footage on an external monitor from the editor.)

The good news though is that *every* movie you've ever watched at home that originated on actual film has also been at 29.97. So as you've seen the 'film-look' is still there despite the pulldown.

Also, FWIW make sure that you are in fact having FCP put standard 3:2 pulldown on your finished edit when outputting to tape. (This is set via the drop down menu in the upper left of your timeline and will probably need to be rendered.) The other option is to export a 24p fps quicktime movie of the edit out of FCP and use this to create all of your derivative copies - 24p DVD, 29.97fps NTSC, 25fps PAL, 35mm film out, etc...

Hope this helps,
Clayton
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

Thanks to everyone who replied to this topic. Learning a lot here...
I realize that all movies I've seen on video tape have indeed been on a 29.97 timeline, but that never affected the 24p look they were shot at originally. Also I've seen TV shows using the DVX that didn't seem to have this issue. It just looked like 24p to me. Odd that my footage should look so drastically different to my eyes in terms of movement. But then again, it could just be me living with it in the canvas window for so long.

Clayton, I looked for that drop down menu you mentioned in the upper left hand corner of my timeline but the only drop down menu I found was the "RT" menu. Can you be more specific for this newbie?

Also, if I create a 24 fps quicktime movie of the edit, will that affect the image quality overall when I output?

Thanks again
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

I'm guessing the look you were seeing in the Canvas window is probably close to the look in the LCD screen while you are recording 24P with the DVX. If you want to maintain this type of look, there are plenty of "strobe" filters out there, as well as dozens of consumer cameras (sony trv33, for instance) that have built in "strobe" effect modes.

As for worries that some kind of strange pulldown turned your footage into "standard 60i" and took away all the film look, that's pretty much impossible as far as I know.

But definitely edit with an NTSC monitor from now on--you'll avoid this issues from the start.
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

Actually it would be under the RT menu, but I just remembered that you're not in a 23.98 sequence. (You've edited at 29.97 with the pulldown in place, right?)

If so, then ignore what I've said about adding pulldown and outputting a 24p movie since neither apply. If in the future you think you'd like to have anymore flexibility in 'porting' your edit to various playback standards (24p DVD, NTSC, PAL, etc) then I would highly recommend shooting 24p Advanced in the camera and editing the footage at 23.98fps in FCP. This will give you a true 23.98 (24p) edit at the end which will serve as a 'universal' master. (And no, there wouldn't be any effect on the image quality.)

Hope this helps,
Clayton
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

Actually it would be under the RT menu, but I just remembered that you're not in a 23.98 sequence. (You've edited at 29.97 with the pulldown in place, right?)
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how the film was shot as I did not put the settings into the camera. Doubtful my DP remembers, but I'll ask him. But yes, I believe this sequence has been edited in a 29.97 timeline. (this sort of screws me, doesn't it?)

Is it possible to copy a sequence edit and paste it into a new timeline with a 23.98 setting to alter the output to a 24p? Or will I just end up with sputtering footage?

Again, thanks for all the help to everyone.
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

I wasn't so much referring to the camera settings when shot, but just whether you removed the pulldown before editing or not. Which is fine not to - it just does mean that you are 'stuck' in 29.97.

(Putting the material into a 23.98 sequence at this point will not do anything. You also won't be able to remove the pulldown - at least via FCP tool's - after editing since it's cadence is broken.)

But again, this shouldn't have much affect on it having a 24fps 'look' to it.

Since it is fairly seamless to remove the DVX's advanced pulldown and edit at 23.98 in FCP 4, I would just suggest going this route on future projects. But don't sweat it on this one unless there is a strong enough need for a 24p original to re-edit the piece (in a 23.98 timeline, after having removed pulldown from captured selects.)

Does this make sense? (I think I may be starting to go in circles... :))
Clayton
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

Yes it does make sense. Thanks again for all the help. As it turns out, we did indeed shoot 24p advanced. Since I have pick-ups to do in May, odds are I'll just dump my source files and recapture properly and do the pulldown re-edit at 23.98. That 24p final look is extremely important to me.

thanks again
 
Re: CLAYTON! HELP!!!

Hi Jordan,

Sorry if I sound like I'm beating a dead horse here, but just to keep you from going on too wild of a goose chase: removing the pulldown and re-editing at 23.976 will give you more versatile frame rate to work from for various types of copies later (as noted above) but it should still look pretty much like what you've already edited with the pulldown intact.

Unless you've got a lot of interlaced renders in there (the 'animated' type of stuff I mentioned earlier) that are throwing you off, it should already have that '24p final look'.

As you mentioned, the edit does match the temporal look of the original footage on the camera tape, right? Irregardless of whether you remove the pulldown to edit or not it is not going to look any different (or perhaps subjectively 'better') than the original tape.

There are some other things that can affect how 'good' 24fps looks when shooting - like speed of pans, camera moves, etc. (The same stuff that would apply when shooting film.) But this would actually be more of a stuttery look than the 'video' look you mentioned initially.

If you have a chance, maybe it would be a good idea to take a breather from looking at the footage either on tape or within FCP to clear the mental pallette as it were. Then come back and watch the edit on a TV monitor and see how it feels. (And compare to original tape if needed.) It's easy to sometimes get so hyper critical of what you're looking at/for that you start to see some things that are either not an issue or there at all.

HTH,
Clayton
 
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