Cinematographer - Personal Gear in the Industry

CharlesPapert said:
There are so many different levels of productions/types of producers/types of shoots/variance amongst markets that it is hard to make any kind of generalization except within one's own experience. Patryk and I are both working DP's and yet we have different angles on this (NY vs LA, different types of clients etc).
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And this is the bottom line^^^. Everything is the same only different. :)

For where I'm at now, doing what I do. I need to own a good variety of gear in-house. But I have worked in other markets doing various job functions, where I needed to own zero gear. And the NY vs LA, AKA location angle is very valid. Years back I worked as a sound mixer with a few ASC DP's who split their year between LA & NY. They all complained about renting storage in NY for their light kit while they were working in LA. One of them quoted an amount for a rental closet if you will, and it was as much as my house payment at the time. Locally my market has seen drastic changes over the years, and I have changed my setup accordingly. From a 5 Ton package down to a mobile Range Rover with platform setup, to just an audio package, to a full sound cart, to zero gear, to the current Sprinter van package. And to be honest, I'm sure it will change again. Gear wise, I have a 2015 goal of off servicing a number of my current Tungsten lighting inventory, and replacing with newer daylight sources, like a few Joker Bugs.
 
stefancolson said:
At the lower end of the market there is no separate budget for gear, so you either have to own your gear or sub-rent it. Let's imagine a hypothetical small project with a budget of $5k:

Profit Margin: $500
Producer: $400
Director: $500
Talent: $300
DP (with gear): $500
AC: $200
Sound (with gear): $400
Gaffer (with gear): $400
Grip: $200
Art Dept (inclusive): $500
PA: $100
Editor (with sound): $400
Graphics/VFX: $250
Music: $100
Food/Crafty/Misc: $250

At those rates in LA you can shoot on a C300/Scarlet (maybe even Epic)/F5 with great glass and a full support package, get 4+ lectro wireless systems/boom+operator/Sound Devices or Zaxcomm 8-channel recorder, a 1+ ton grip package, etc. If you put ads up for those positions at those rates on craigslist LA with those gear requests, you'd get 10+ qualified (and 40 semi or unqualified) responses for every position.

If you are bidding for this job you have to either own the camera they want and include it in your rate, rent or borrow it from someone (who doesn't require insurance) at your own expense, or convince the production to use the camera you own.

That's a pretty realistic look at what the web market is like. Online web videos for sites like cracked, funnyordie, etc. and major youtube channels might have budgets like this or smaller. Same for web-content for small-to-medium-sized brands and even some extremely low-end cable segments.

Higher budgets mean that the production either pays to rent the gear, or pays you to rent your gear.
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Well, those numbers don't reflect FULL reality. The reality being that this $5k job in reality is around $10k, the producer (the wise producer) keeps half the budget. And if the budget indeed is $5k then he/she should cut it in half so defacto budget for production is $2.5k.

The amount of craiglist responses is NOT reflective of the qualification or even the job market. Of around 200 responses you would get for DP position (here in NYC) probably 10 are those of pros and the rest is some amateurs with some gear, likewise will happen with editor position. I'm not kidding here as i sometimes am forced to look for crew on CL when my usual contact run out. If you think 25% of responses are pros then you have to develop a more keen eye for quality (i'm not trying to be insulting but rather showing the reality of the game, it's EXTREMELY hard to find quality people in any position - and this is not only my opinion but of everyone who has to do any hiring).
 
Yes, single, but even if i werent id have another income (i.e not supporting both of us) so itd be even easier cause we'd share rent/utils/etc. no kids either. If i had kids i'd quit the industry.
 
There are sectors of "the industry" that are certainly wringing the most blood from various stones... mostly entertainment-related such as music videos, broadcast/reality, local news, short films, etc, genres that are decidedly oversaturated. Trying to make it there is like trying to get into Major League Baseball... you'd better have a lot of skill and hit at the right time, and you might have to spend a few years bumming through the minors and semi-pro leagues and maybe not get anywhere... and you'd better stay on top of your game or down you go.

Fortunately other sectors of the industry, such as documentary, informational, corporate, and commercial formats are growing as the entry cost is now well within small business' reach. It might not impress TwitFace to post of selfie as you wrap production on a bitchin' real estate investment primer series, but that stuff feeds a dang family.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Well, those numbers don't reflect FULL reality. The reality being that this $5k job in reality is around $10k, the producer (the wise producer) keeps half the budget. And if the budget indeed is $5k then he/she should cut it in half so defacto budget for production is $2.5k.
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That's absolutely true, a $5k production budget means that there's more money going to whomever actually has to put the production together, pay taxes and acquire permits/insurance, etc. I've never been in a situation (other than passion projects) where all of the money actually went to production and post costs. There's always a middleman who usually gets the juiciest cut.

Patryk_Rebisz said:
The amount of craiglist responses is NOT reflective of the qualification or even the job market. Of around 200 responses you would get for DP position (here in NYC) probably 10 are those of pros and the rest is some amateurs with some gear, likewise will happen with editor position. I'm not kidding here as i sometimes am forced to look for crew on CL when my usual contact run out. If you think 25% of responses are pros then you have to develop a more keen eye for quality (i'm not trying to be insulting but rather showing the reality of the game, it's EXTREMELY hard to find quality people in any position - and this is not only my opinion but of everyone who has to do any hiring).
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I hire from craigslist when my regular guys aren't available, and in LA the pro/amateur ratio is way better than 5%. For example, I had to hire a gaffer from craigslist for a recent smallish shoot on short notice. I had 17 responses from guys with great resumes, long lists of work for legitimate production companies, long lists of repeat clients, well written cover letters, and suitable 1-3 ton packages who were willing to come out with gear for less than $400/day. I also had probably 100 responses that were instant-deletes. That doesn't mean all 17 of those guys would have been great, and you are completely correct that craigslist costs aren't indicative of the whole market. But even with your figures, if there are 10 pros competing for a job in NYC that pays $500/day with gear, then even at those rates to get that job you have to be a competitive pro. Even more so if the person doing the hiring is going to have to wade through 200 responses to separate the wheat from the chaff. Statistically speaking, you have a better chance of being accepted to Harvard than you have of getting that job. Knowing that a random low-rate craigslist ad (which is the bottom of the barrel in most ways) for a DP returns 10 qualified, viable professional options certainly tells you something about the market in NYC, even if it isn't the whole story.

Of course it's hard to find excellent people in any position, but it isn't that hard to find adequate or satisfactory people in any position. You have to compete with those people until you can prove that you are of real quality to enough producers to make the phone ring consistently. If you aren't at that point yet, then the prospect of competing with 200 hacks and 10 pros for every job is a daunting reality.
 
stefancolson said:
I hire from craigslist when my regular guys aren't available, and in LA the pro/amateur ratio is way better than 5%. For example, I had to hire a gaffer from craigslist for a recent smallish shoot on short notice. I had 17 responses from guys with great resumes, long lists of work for legitimate production companies, long lists of repeat clients, well written cover letters, and suitable 1-3 ton packages who were willing to come out with gear for less than $400/day. I also had probably 100 responses that were instant-deletes. That doesn't mean all 17 of those guys would have been great, and you are completely correct that craigslist costs aren't indicative of the whole market. But even with your figures, if there are 10 pros competing for a job in NYC that pays $500/day with gear, then even at those rates to get that job you have to be a competitive pro. Even more so if the person doing the hiring is going to have to wade through 200 responses to separate the wheat from the chaff. Statistically speaking, you have a better chance of being accepted to Harvard than you have of getting that job. Knowing that a random low-rate craigslist ad (which is the bottom of the barrel in most ways) for a DP returns 10 qualified, viable professional options certainly tells you something about the market in NYC, even if it isn't the whole story.

Of course it's hard to find excellent people in any position, but it isn't that hard to find adequate or satisfactory people in any position. You have to compete with those people until you can prove that you are of real quality to enough producers to make the phone ring consistently. If you aren't at that point yet, then the prospect of competing with 200 hacks and 10 pros for every job is a daunting reality.
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I suspect you see the glass as half empty... The way i see it, if someone doesn't like my rates or terms i'm happy to let them waste their time to wade through the 200 hacks and if they do finally find one of the 10 skilled guys then i'm certain that the skilled guys do not work for the mentioned rates because most likely they add a little line to their email response: "Rates negotiable." This line means the $500 offered is way lower then they would move their finger for (something i have done with great results when it comes to negotiating). Skills = money. The only time the skills and money don't go arm in arm when the projects is truly outstanding (and lets get real, how often does that happen?).
 
There are people who will compromise like you guys say and there are people who will tell potential clients offering those types of rates for what theyre asking for in return to eff right off. You have to decide which you will be.

I am still lacking the critical gear to get a lot of gigs (cam, now tripod needs replacing, and still dont have a good portable monitor). I can tell you if i had those things, id be more willing to compromise on rates...up to a point. Hard to say where that is. If i owned all that stuff and someone wanted a two hour shoot with a cam and a mic done for what id normally charge for a half or full day without gear, i MIGHT do it. If they wanted a full day for that same rate or that same short shoot also required a lighting package, theyre gonna have to find someone else.
 
I understand what you're saying, but when it's the 20th and you haven't worked enough to pay all of your expenses for the month, you take what you can get in order to make a living. It's easy to tell a producer to find someone else when you don't need the work. I also think that it's always better to be shooting than to be sitting at home. I want to make a living as much as anyone else, but I've chosen this career because I believe in it as a craft and art form, not because I'm primarily driven by money.

I'd rather constantly be on a project, honing my skills, always learning, so that I can be the absolute best that I'm capable of. If I was a musician, I would always be playing music, regardless of the pay. If I were a painter, I would always be painting, regardless of the pay. Why should I then not approach my craft with the same fervor and passion that other artists do? Of course I negotiate for better rates, but I'd rather take $200 on a day when I'm not working than sit at home if the producer won't flex.

I know that my skills are worth far more than a lot of these low-paying jobs. I would put my abilities and results up against many people who make a lot more money and work on bigger sets than I do, and I'm confident that with time all of the sacrifice, hard work, and constant practice will pay off in bigger and better jobs. It takes time to build up a base of clients who pay good rates, and there is a lot of competition out here. In 10 years I want to be shooting features, scripted TV, and creative projects exclusively, making good money. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to build the skills, portfolio of work, and network to make that happen, and I'm willing to go through some hardship to get it. For now I do what I have to do to improve at a rate that's acceptable to me.

I just want to be better than guys like you Patryk, who do consistently great work at a high level. Every time I have to do an overnight shoot for less per hour than I made at an entry level job in college ten years ago, it's so I can become someone whose work you guys will someday know, respect, and most importantly enjoy :)
 
Sure, that's absolutely a point; when you're desperate you're desperate, you gotta do what you gotta do. On the other hand there are people who say (I'm thinking of a guy I just had a discussion similar to this with a few weeks ago) that when you do good work for a fraction of the local market rate you're driving down prices for everyone around you.
 
If I'm giving someone a break on my day rate, it's usually a friend or a friend of a friend who needs a favor. On some of these narrative projects, they money is not there and it's not going to get there and you can do it or not but it doesn't change the market at all. These producers are doing their best and if I like the project and the people, and it's a challenge aesthetically, I'll do it for less than my rate.

On commercial projects, where there is a budget and a return on the work in terms of sales, public relations or customer relations or just plain advertising, then I draw the line more sharply.

I agree with stefancolson in that I'd rather be shooting than not.
 
"Everyone seems to be working but me"
"Am i delusional to be doing it, am i crazy?"
"I need to find some paying work soon so get rid of that internal fear of 'not making it'"

That's psychology we are all susceptible to. EVERYONE goes through it. Those fears though magically go away when you start working on your personal project. All the sudden you would rather work for free on your project with the idea that in a few weeks/months it will be finished and reap the fruits, then on someone else's underpaid nonsense. I REALLY CAN"T STRESS IT ENOUGH! You have to have a personal project or the fears i speak about will keep on creeping in.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
"Everyone seems to be working but me"
"Am i delusional to be doing it, am i crazy?"
"I need to find some paying work soon so get rid of that internal fear of 'not making it'"

That's psychology we are all susceptible to. EVERYONE goes through it. Those fears though magically go away when you start working on your personal project. All the sudden you would rather work for free on your project with the idea that in a few weeks/months it will be finished and reap the fruits, then on someone else's underpaid nonsense. I REALLY CAN"T STRESS IT ENOUGH! You have to have a personal project or the fears i speak about will keep on creeping in.
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Bumping this thread to support this point. Seems incredibly important to making it during the early years of hustling.
 
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