Cinematographer - Personal Gear in the Industry

As I haven't been exposed to much of the freelancing industry, I have nothing to compare it with. That article had tons of redirects and even some from prominent people in this forum.
After relooking at the expenses he tallied up, it seems quite extreme, so that might have skewed his rates similar to someone in a higher place in the industry. $10k+ on new equipment each year?

EDIT: If you were saying that number was too high, then my first question is even more serious. How is anyone expected to pay for renting a camera? Are you assuming the camera is only needing to be rented for a day or two, and the rest of the days paid for are editing/preproduction?
 
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In my experience, $500-1000 a day for someone who is just starting out is pure fantasy. You might get that on a regular basis in 10 years, but the only jobs that pay that much are going to go to known entities, and there's a lot of competition out there. Even if you're the most qualified for the job, producers tend to hire people they've worked with before or people who are recommended by people they've worked with before. It takes time to build up those networks and establish a reputation as someone who consistently delivers a quality product.

My first year was full of $100/day jobs (when I wasn't working for free). It took four years to get to a point where $400-500/day is common. Even at that, I still take a lot of $250-ish/day jobs because I want to work. I've done features (that are in Walmart, at Redbox kiosks, etc.) that paid less than minimum wage. I've had to fight to get those jobs, too.

Being a cinematographer is a slow play. There really aren't many overnight successes in this field, and you kind of have to beat your head against the same door for along time before it starts to give way. Look at this list of up and coming cinematographers: http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/on-the-rise-2014-cinematographers-to-watch-20140806. Many of them have been working consistently for 20+ years.
 
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That lower price per day seems much more likely. I understand the higher price range was for when a freelancer was already settled into the field for some time. Thanks for clearing that up though.

So how are you supposed to rent the equipment then? Or are you assuming they rent the equipment themselves separately from the money they pay you?
And was I right in assuming the numbers in the Vincent article are much higher than would be realistic?

I'll check out the Up And Coming article!
 
At the lower end of the market there is no separate budget for gear, so you either have to own your gear or sub-rent it. Let's imagine a hypothetical small project with a budget of $5k:

Profit Margin: $500
Producer: $400
Director: $500
Talent: $300
DP (with gear): $500
AC: $200
Sound (with gear): $400
Gaffer (with gear): $400
Grip: $200
Art Dept (inclusive): $500
PA: $100
Editor (with sound): $400
Graphics/VFX: $250
Music: $100
Food/Crafty/Misc: $250

At those rates in LA you can shoot on a C300/Scarlet (maybe even Epic)/F5 with great glass and a full support package, get 4+ lectro wireless systems/boom+operator/Sound Devices or Zaxcomm 8-channel recorder, a 1+ ton grip package, etc. If you put ads up for those positions at those rates on craigslist LA with those gear requests, you'd get 10+ qualified (and 40 semi or unqualified) responses for every position.

If you are bidding for this job you have to either own the camera they want and include it in your rate, rent or borrow it from someone (who doesn't require insurance) at your own expense, or convince the production to use the camera you own.

That's a pretty realistic look at what the web market is like. Online web videos for sites like cracked, funnyordie, etc. and major youtube channels might have budgets like this or smaller. Same for web-content for small-to-medium-sized brands and even some extremely low-end cable segments.

Higher budgets mean that the production either pays to rent the gear, or pays you to rent your gear.
 
That is what I was looking for!

Where does the profit margin go? Is it split among the group?
When looking up the rental cost of a RED Scarlet/Epic with all the associated gear (from a rental house), it is usually more than $500. What is the usual daily rate for sub-renting it from an individual person?
Who pays for the rest of the equipment that is rented (lenses, grip package, sound)? Is the grip paying for the grip truck himself, the dp also paying for the lenses, the sound operator paying for the sound stuff (if they don't already own it)?
And how long would a production last for at this price range (where you, the DP, are actually working; not the full time including editing where the dp is only partially involved)?

Thanks for bearing with me!
 
iamlance said:
Several of you have mentioned having an all-in-one package of gear. Without going into specifics (unless you want to), what does that consist of?

Ex.
4k Camera (unless you rent) with 5 prime lenses
Camera Supports (Tripod and/or Rigs)
Basic grip gear (stands, safety cables, sandbags, etc.)
Sound Package (Microphones to cover most jobs, recorder, mixer, boom and accessories)
Simple Dolly/Jib
Lights (150w, 300w, 2 650w, 2 1000w, 1 2000w) and light affecting gear (scrims, flags, etc.)
Click to expand...

I roll with:

Epic with Red 17-50mm and 50-150mm PL zooms
OR
Canon C100 with Atomos Ninja blade and Canon L Zooms.

Kino 4x4 (2)
Kino Diva 2 bank
Kino Parabeam 400
Arri 575w HMI Fresnel
Joker 800
Joker 400
Arri 650 fresnels (4)
Arri 300 fresnels (3)
Dedolight Felloni 1x1 bicolor (2)
Dana Dolly with 4',6' and 8' track and low boys
Seven Jib
Grip stands/Stingers
Hihat
Apple boxes
laundry cart and camera cart.

In this:

1424305_546736215394868_996102644_n.jpg
 
Can you describe (or show bt example) what type of job can be done for these alarming figures! (below)

Apart from alarmingly low rates...there is no prep time, art department materials, makeup, location fees, electricity, vehicle, travel, freight, edit / post prod time...

Does everyone just turn up and wing it on the shoot day then knock off an edit same day!

Those figures cant sustain an industry , any investment or any individual.

How does one even pay taxes and business costs from them!

stefancolson said:
At the lower end of the market there is no separate budget for gear, so you either have to own your gear or sub-rent it. Let's imagine a hypothetical small project with a budget of $5k:

Profit Margin: $500
Producer: $400
Director: $500
Talent: $300
DP (with gear): $500
AC: $200
Sound (with gear): $400
Gaffer (with gear): $400
Grip: $200
Art Dept (inclusive): $500
PA: $100
Editor (with sound): $400
Graphics/VFX: $250
Music: $100
Food/Crafty/Misc: $250

At those rates in LA you can shoot on a C300/Scarlet (maybe even Epic)/F5 with great glass and a full support package, get 4+ lectro wireless systems/boom+operator/Sound Devices or Zaxcomm 8-channel recorder, a 1+ ton grip package, etc. If you put ads up for those positions at those rates on craigslist LA with those gear requests, you'd get 10+ qualified (and 40 semi or unqualified) responses for every position.

If you are bidding for this job you have to either own the camera they want and include it in your rate, rent or borrow it from someone (who doesn't require insurance) at your own expense, or convince the production to use the camera you own.

That's a pretty realistic look at what the web market is like. Online web videos for sites like cracked, funnyordie, etc. and major youtube channels might have budgets like this or smaller. Same for web-content for small-to-medium-sized brands and even some extremely low-end cable segments.

Higher budgets mean that the production either pays to rent the gear, or pays you to rent your gear.
Click to expand...
 
iamlance said:
Several of you have mentioned having an all-in-one package of gear. Without going into specifics (unless you want to), what does that consist of?

Ex.
4k Camera (unless you rent) with 5 prime lenses
Camera Supports (Tripod and/or Rigs)
Basic grip gear (stands, safety cables, sandbags, etc.)
Sound Package (Microphones to cover most jobs, recorder, mixer, boom and accessories)
Simple Dolly/Jib
Lights (150w, 300w, 2 650w, 2 1000w, 1 2000w) and light affecting gear (scrims, flags, etc.)

Would this be a basic kit, too little, or too much for someone starting out having to do freelance work? I know it depends on your budgets and opinions, but I'd like to hear what you have to say anyways!
Click to expand...

At the other end of the spectrum from mcgeedigital's kit, I've been freelancing for 6 years next month with variations (usually in camera) on this pretty basic kit:

Camera (Currently Panasonic GH4, AF100, and GH2 - or rent as needed)
Lens package (Tokina 11-16, Sigma 18-35 and 50-150 zooms; Leica R Primes 28, 35, 50, 90; Voigtlander 17.5, Leica DG 25, Lumix 12-35, Nikon-MFT Speedbooster, others) - exact kit varies by need
Audio - 2x Sennheiser G2 wireless sets; 2x Sony wired lab mics; Sennheiser ME66 boom; AT897 boom; Rode VMP; Marantz PMD660 field recorder; Sony 7506's - (for bigger jobs, I hire audio equipped)
Lighting - 2 Lowel DV Creator 55 kits, plus some (2x RIFA55, 3x V-lights, 3x Pro-Lights, umbrellae, gels, reflectors, flags, blackwrap, scrims, diffusion, spring & C clamps, arms, duvatyne, collapsible backgrounds and reflectors); 2x F&V Z96 LED's (for the flight kit); mess of Lowel light stands; 2x C-stands with arms; 4 sandbags; several stingers, dimmers, triple-taps, cheater taps
Support - 2x Manfrotto fluid tripods (1lg, 1sm); 1 MeFoto tripod (for the flight kit); Manfrotto fluid monopod; Kessler Pocket Dolly 2'

Production truck is a spry '99 Cherokee with a Fugazi-blasting cassette deck and nearly 300k on the ticker

I have other specialized and non-specialized stuff... more lenses, microscope adapters, etc. It's relatively not much but has kept my family of 5 housed, clothed, and fed, without incurring a lot of gear debt.
 
Shooter said:
Can you describe (or show bt example) what type of job can be done for these alarming figures! (below)

Apart from alarmingly low rates...there is no prep time, art department materials, makeup, location fees, electricity, vehicle, travel, freight, edit / post prod time...

Does everyone just turn up and wing it on the shoot day then knock off an edit same day!

Those figures cant sustain an industry , any investment or any individual.

How does one even pay taxes and business costs from them!
Click to expand...

Welcome to new media (especially in LA). I don't make this stuff up, this is reality for many, many people.

Those are all-inclusive rates, so often you'll be expected to show up to an interview/pre-pro meeting/scout/etc. before the shoot without extra pay. Art department will be expected to pay for materials and do their pickups/dropoffs without extra pay. A friend of mine who does reality work for Discovery is often expected to do makeup as well (he's the DP). Travel expenses/mileage/freight/etc. is a luxury at the low end of the market. Post rates would be all inclusive here as well for as long as it takes to get the work done, those aren't day rates.

Even though the budgets are low, expectations are not. The rates may not be good, but there is a lot of competition for these gigs. The only way to claw your way up to better work is to over-deliver in every situation. The producer on that $5k project is probably an up and comer too, so the best way to make a better future for yourself is to impress everyone you work with. That way when that producer is crewing a $50k project you still get the call.

Speaking of which, most freelance DP gigs don't ever go through an interview/hiring process. A producer already knows people they like to work with or will get recommendations from people they trust. 90% of the good jobs I've booked have been a repeat client or a referral from a friend/colleague. The only way to make sure that you're the one getting that call is to work with a lot of people, and when you're starting out the only way to do that is on low-budget sets.

I've done and do many jobs in that general range (the hypothetical $5k project) as a freelancer (I don't bid that low when it's my company putting a shoot together), often for well-known national brands (small web campaigns), with celebrity talent for narrative web stuff, etc. I'm shooting a 1/2 day this week for a spot that is headed to cable. I'm the DP and I'm providing camera, lenses, support, and G&E. The rate is $250. I was competing against more than 100 other people for the job...

Narrative is even worse! A $500k feature could easily translate into $250/day for department heads, maybe with little-to-no pay for prep. The crews for films like Sharknado and other low-budget fare might make as little as $150/day, even when the projects go on to make huge profits.

Nobody likes working harder and providing more for less, but what's the alternative? If this is what you want to do, you either make the best of the opportunities that are out there or you don't. We all try to not get taken advantage of, and to differentiate between someone that can't pay you more and someone who WON'T pay you more, but at the end of the day you either shoot the projects you can get or you turn them down and don't work.
 
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iamlance said:
That is what I was looking for!

Where does the profit margin go? Is it split among the group?
When looking up the rental cost of a RED Scarlet/Epic with all the associated gear (from a rental house), it is usually more than $500. What is the usual daily rate for sub-renting it from an individual person?
Who pays for the rest of the equipment that is rented (lenses, grip package, sound)? Is the grip paying for the grip truck himself, the dp also paying for the lenses, the sound operator paying for the sound stuff (if they don't already own it)?
And how long would a production last for at this price range (where you, the DP, are actually working; not the full time including editing where the dp is only partially involved)?

Thanks for bearing with me!
Click to expand...

The profit goes to the person doing the hiring and putting the shoot together. That may be the on-set producer, or it may be a different person or company.

If you rent from a rental house, you need production insurance. This is going to cost minimum $200 (covering the rented gear only), but usually around $600. That makes rental houses a non-option for sub-renting at low budgets. In a situation like the one I outlined you'd have to rent the package from a friend or colleague. In LA you can find a workable Scarlet package for about $250 ($350 for Epic) if you know where to look.

A project like this probably won't have a "truck" so much as a station wagon or van that the gaffer owns/brings. Something this low budget means that everyone brings all of their own gear for the rate they're quoted. On a bigger shoot there will be separate rental budgets for every department.

That hypothetical project is only a 1-day shoot. Most of the freelance non-narrative work I get is a few days at most, usually just one or two.

This is my kit:
Blackmagic 2.5k & Pocket
(2) GH2s
Tokina 11-16, Sigma 18-35, Set of Contax Zeiss Primes, 70-200 IS II
(2) sets of sticks
(2) complete rigs (v-mount power, SmallHD monitors, shoulder rigs, etc)
Sound (shared with a friend/colleague): 4 lectro lavs, 8-channel recorder, shotgun, hypercard
Lights: 200w, (2) 650w, 750w softlite, 1k nook light, (2) kino 2x2, 150w HMI Fresnel, 2 Lite Panels
Basic Grip Gear (C-Stands, Baby Stands, Boom Stand, Stingers, Sandbags, Apple Boxes, Clamps, flags, etc.)
12' Kessler Jib with remote head
Shuttle Pod
Steadicam (25lb payload)
Glidecam HD400 (w/ vest/arm)
Hihat
DIT/Camera Cart (w/ new mac pro, 30" monitor, RAID array, etc.)

Most of the time I'm competing for work with people who have 2-4x the gear I have.
 
Then how is it possible to survive? Is this just in huge cities, or everywhere? I already didn't want to go to LA or NYU (because if you aren't the best where you are now, you definitely won't be when there's a million other people like you), but now it seems like I wouldn't be able to whether or not I wanted to live there.

Shooter, are the rates much different in New Zealand?
 
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My kit is varied, but on a lower scale. I have many of those things, but not at the level I want. Ex. For lights, I have many different wattages of lights, but not specialized types. Just open-faced/fresnels.
It's interesting to see the difference in each of your kits. Some necessary things are the same in each, but the rest has a wide margin of cost/what you prefer.
 
For many, the key is finding a niche for bread n butter work, and being flexible. Some do weddings, some do legal videography, others do music videos, and so forth. I make a decent enough salary from one client that shoots scientific experiments, medicine, and surgeries (I worked in lab science for a few years, so it's a good fit). I live in a smaller town, but am willing to get up at the crack of stupid and drive my ass off if and when I work in DC, Raleigh, Philly, wherever... it's worth it to have the lower cost of living (plus I hate cities anyway). I round out the years shooting various corporate and doc work, mostly talking heads, and a few other commercial or web projects here and there. For the most part I spend very little on gear, since it gains me nothing extra to have the latest and greatest in my niche. That plus living a bit off the grid and raising a good bit of our own food helps make my modest income stretch quite a ways.
 
@stefancolson

I am sincerely distressed to hear all that you have posted regarding how it works in your world!
You are being taken advantage of by a cynical industry.

@iamlance

Shooter, are the rates much different in New Zealand?
Click to expand...

Well ..despite it being a competitive industry..freelancers are much more respected generally by clients in New Zealand and the rates are significangtly better than what stefan is telling us.

Despite being non unionised...we have a Code of Practice "Blue Book" for technicians ...largely followed, by producers and only the desparate or naieve would tolerate what I am hearing from Stefan. Techos here set their rates within parameters of their experience and role..and negotiate directly with the producer.

Once you set your rate at lowest common denominator...you will find it very difficult to raise the bar when a producer has a bigger budget.

Its a famous bullshit producers line ..." do this cheap job this time and you will get the next big one". It does not happen and the producer moves on to the next hotshot D.P or whatever..to make him/her work look good.
 
It's not too different than starting out in any competitive, creative industry. You live as cheap as possible, try to network as much as possible, and hustle as hard as you can. It's completely feasible to pay the bills in your first year if you just work as hard as possible.

That theoretical project looks bleak, but if you can shoot/edit then you just doubled your money. Weddings can pay $500+/day if you're good at shooting them. There are a lot of $500 hip-hop videos to be made if you can direct/shoot/edit. Most small businesses need some sort of video content these days, and even at the low end you can make a few hundred dollars for a few days work.

If you can book a wedding, event or two, and 5-10 days of no-budget student or craigslist shoots each month, plus a local-business web video or commercial and a music video every couple months, then you'll be making enough to barely scrape by, even in LA or NYC. That still leaves you with 15+ free days every month to shoot your own stuff, network, practice, look for work, etc. If you do this for a year or two, you'll have a great reel, some experience (most of it in learning what not to do when the stakes are higher), and at least a few connections to producers or directors who'll be bringing in better work. You'll also have made friends with many people on the same path as you, which is very important both in your growth as an artist and professional, and for future job prospects. After a few years you'll be making enough to lead a normal-ish life.
 
Shooter said:
I am sincerely distressed to hear all that you have posted regarding how it works in your world!
You are being taken advantage of by a cynical industry.

Once you set your rate at lowest common denominator...you will find it very difficult to raise the bar when a producer has a bigger budget.

Its a famous bulls*%t producers line ..." do this cheap job this time and you will get the next big one". It does not happen and the producer moves on to the next hotshot D.P or whatever..to make him/her work look good.
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It's partly a choice. Choosing to be a DP immediately instead of focusing on AC work (or even operating work) means a much bigger struggle. Nobody with a real budget is going to put all of that money on the shoulders of someone who has no track record. Someone who starts out assisting isn't going to have to take such low paying jobs or put up with as much nonsense.

I have been taken advantage of in the past, but for the most part my rates have risen with the budgets when it comes to my repeat clients. I quote my full, fair day rate for every project, even if I end up working for much less. And my standards rise with the opportunities. Most of those $5k-budget jobs are for people who just want to do the best that they can with the money they have. They know that they aren't paying what the crew is worth, and what a fair rate is. When the clients get bigger and the budgets go up, they raise the rates accordingly for the most part. If they don't, you don't continue to work with them.

The upside if you are willing to start with those low rates is that you can get a lot of experience as a cinematographer fast, even if you can't afford the best gear. If you do excellent work consistently and are easy to deal with, the projects will get bigger and the rates will get higher. After 10 years it's not unrealistic to get that $500-1000/day without providing gear, once you have a large network of clients and colleagues who do work with budgets that afford that kind of rate.

As a DP, a huge amount of responsibility is on your shoulders. It takes a long time to prove that you can be trusted with a $25k/day production budget. You can either spend that time shooting lower (but progressively larger) budget projects, or you can spend it on large budget projects, rising through the ranks and assuming a progressively larger share of the responsibility. Each has its pros and cons. One path just might be filled with more Top Ramen.
 
Maybe in other places its different, but you can definitely rent gear in houston WITHOUT production insurance. They may charge a little more to make up for it, or you may have to put a large deposit down in the gear which is then refunded if its returned the way it left, or they run your credit card and only authorize it if something happens, etc. so dont rule out rental.

And as far making $100-200k, i have lived just fine on $30k-ish a year in houston, so...
 
Those numbers I quoted were incorrect! I figured that out after going through the costs the guy had put into the CODB formula.

I've thought about doing film in Houston or Austin, as the film industry is becoming larger there without being overrun like in LA. We'll see what happens.

It's relieving to hear that it isn't continuous, that you are able to live more comfortably after a few years of experience. From a young age, I decided I cared more about doing something I love than sitting at a desk earning much more money. I guess now (when I finish college in 2 years) it'll be time to test that out.
 
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iamlance said:
From a young age, I decided I cared more about doing something I love than sitting at a desk earning much more more. I guess now (when I finish college in 2 years) it'll be time to test that out.
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That's exactly it. I work really really hard, sometimes for not much money. But at the same time, I haven't had to go to work in a decade. It's very rare to have a work-day that I'm not feeling enthusiastic about when I get up in the morning. Too many people don't put enough value in being personally and creatively fulfilled. Happiness and personal freedom can be very expensive propositions in terms of financial opportunity cost.
 
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