Cinematic dialogue

marvinhello

marvinhello

Well-known member
Hi all, I've been struggling on finding proper ways of making the dialogue sounds more cinematic. I've read the stickies and the book "Dialogue editing for motion pictures", and my kit includes a NTG3, AT4053B, Tascam HD-P2 with Doug Oade MOD, rycote boompole and shockmount.

I use AT4053B indoor and NTG3 outdoor, always use boompole to position the mic at 20cm-50cm above the talent, sound recorded as 24bit 48Khz WAV.

The post processing workflow I'm currently using is, first use Izotope RX to clean up the dialogue track, checkerboard different characters, then apply EQ, I read the post about "Understanding EQ", I followed some of the suggestions but the dialogue always sounds far inferior than those movies, for example, a horror movie called "The Divide", the dialogue in this film is so rich and crisp, feels quite bassy (don't know how to decribe this kind of sound texture).

After EQ I usually apply some compression to squeeze the dynamic range a bit, then use prerecorded roomtone to smooth out the edits.

Any tips? I think sound the spirit of a film, especially for dialogue. Is it mainly EQ tricks that make those dialogues sound cinematic?

EDIT: here is a sample dialogue recorded on set.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12279480/WAV059.zip
 
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So what do your raw recorded tracks sound like?
Are you saying that your final results lack "presence"?
In what sort of acoustic environments are you shooting?

You say you are using a boom pole, but do you have someone positioning it who knows what they are doing?
Are they able to monitor the microphone signal, or are they running open-loop (i.e. "guessing")?

What sort of "clean up" are you doing? Is that increasing or reducing your "cinematic" target sound?

This is rather a nebulous question without some examples.
 
So as Richard said we need to hear it...

Can you try this for me ?
Skip the izotope, and only do EQ... parametrique EQ... search for the unwanted frequenties.... play with Q factor.... try to lower it 12dB but also 4dB only or 7....

Compression, don't use it "overload"... Compression also means "pushing up background noise"....

And good mixing, is also important... Use the faders,

But if it's recorded bad.....
 
Agreed. We can say all of this but we really need to hear what you're working with. Sure, iZotope is useful, but I've gotten much cleaner and less-artifacty results with EQ and an expander for noisy files. Get rid of the unwanted frequencies first, the push down the noise a bit with the expander - just enough so you don't hear the noise floor pumping. I rarely use compression after that unless it's a line that has a tremendous amount of dynamics (whispering to yelling), but I usually just use all fader movements and use the compressor on the DX bus to catch the very tips. Nonetheless, if you have Nuendo or PT10, you have clip-based gain, which can be used to level dialogue out without even touching a compressor. This way, if you do choose to use a compressor after clip-based gain, the compressor will be working less. There are some very clean sounding compressors out there that no matter how hard you hit it, it still sounds smooth, but I like the idea of not even using a compressor to preserve the life of the recording. Compression will certainly raise the noise floor up, and depending on the quality of your recording, this could be a bad thing.
 
Are you able to record the audio you want by moving the mic closer? Or positioning it differantly on talent? Try this without a camera recording the scene, just to see if you can get original material that can be modified how you want. Then, you can potentially eliminate mic placement as a problem, or find out that it is the problem.

Also, for theater sound and comparing it against your pretty legitimate attempt, we would 100% need the file to learn/listen/advice more. (for instance, I don't know if my audio sounds 'better' than your audio, so I don't even know if I can give you advice, it may be that your audio is better than mine, and I would be LEARNING from you, rather than the other way around)

Hope you post some samples soon. Archive.org is a really easy place to host files.
 
Also you must realize you have never heard what a professional dialog track sounds like. What you are comparing to is the final mix with all the elements in place. Dialog on it's own doesn't sound much like what you hear "in the theatre". So maybe the problem isn't the dialog edit but the lack of everything else?
 
Noiz2 said:
Also you must realize you have never heard what a professional dialog track sounds like. What you are comparing to is the final mix with all the elements in place. Dialog on it's own doesn't sound much like what you hear "in the theatre". So maybe the problem isn't the dialog edit but the lack of everything else?
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. Getting your dialogue to sound similar to what you hear on a big budget feature is a lot of work involving lots of people. For specifically dialogue, you'll have the production sound mixer, then the dialogue editor(s), then the dialogue pre-dub, then the final mix.
 
davefisk said:
I was thinking the same thing. Getting your dialogue to sound similar to what you hear on a big budget feature is a lot of work involving lots of people. For specifically dialogue, you'll have the production sound mixer, then the dialogue editor(s), then the dialogue pre-dub, then the final mix.
Click to expand...

... and even after that, there's the home theater mix, which might be the one the OP is comparing too? That in itself might have a smaller dynamic range compared to the theatrical.
 
.. and how good is your talent/actors at doing this?

That's where you start from, if they don't have the experience in voice work, you'll be hard pressed to make your dialogue tracks sound 'more cinematic.'

If this is the case, call a local theatre group and ask for some help in the form of their 'best' voices to rehearse for their next show on camera.

Then you'll have some examples to play with in post .. and maybe another prospective client.

Cheers.
 
Allan Black said:
.. and how good is your talent/actors at doing this?

That's where you start from, if they don't have the experience in voice work, you'll be hard pressed to make your dialogue tracks sound 'more cinematic.'

If this is the case, call a local theatre group and ask for some help in the form of their 'best' voices to rehearse for their next show on camera.

Then you'll have some examples to play with in post .. and maybe another prospective client.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

I participated in a 48 hour project recently, mainly to get more contacts with people. One of those contacts is someone who is involved in doing theater workshops. I'm hoping to set up some 'film experiences' where I shot some scenes.

Some of the observations I've had for a long time with in my own efforts and those that I see in the clips here and elsewhere:

1) Over gesticulation of the actor on screen.
2) Voice ranging from 'monotone' to 'over enunciated' (audio version of over gesticulation...)
3) Voice dynamics, mostly 'too low' for 'quiet scenes', and 'too loud' for emotional scenes...

Some of the dynamics could be compensated for by dynamic adjustments of the recording levels, but it seems to me there would still be too much 'noise' trying to boost an actor's voice when it is low.
 
Thanks everyone! I'll post some samples soon!

By the way, have you guys seen the trailer of 007: Skyfall? The dialogue in this trailer sounds very unique, again feels very bassy... maybe it's low frequency rumble?
 
marvinhello said:
Thanks everyone! I'll post some samples soon!

By the way, have you guys seen the trailer of 007: Skyfall? The dialogue in this trailer sounds very unique, again feels very bassy... maybe it's low frequency rumble?
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like it's just a great recording with a good mic and preamp.

When he says "employment" you can hear a bit of the expansion at the tail. The mixer is probably doing that just enough to pull down the noise floor or it may be even a nice fade. The word "Skyfall" sounds like it's from a different take or even ADR?

Also don't forget the actual voice too. Some people just have good voices.
 
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ryanjf said:
Sounds to me like it's just a great recording with a good mic and preamp.

When he says "employment" you can hear a bit of the expansion at the tail. The mixer is probably doing that just enough to pull down the noise floor or it may be even a nice fade. The word "Skyfall" sounds like it's from a different take or even ADR?

Also don't forget the actual voice too. Some people just have good voices.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insights, I heard someone say that it's better to position the mic slightly angled towards the talent's chest? In the skyfall trailer, Craig sounds full of chest-resonance to me (esp. the word "provocateur"), is this achieved by close micing (pointing to the chest) and EQ, compression/expander?
 
The shot where he sais: skyfall is wide yes, but WIDE is a BIG difference with HEIGTH... a shot can be veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery wide... But for booming it's the HEIGHT that counts... I think the boom could reach low enough to have a "natural" sound regarding "frame wide" and "location. (little bit reverb is ok, because it's a reverby room in the image also)

You also hear that words are cut with fade in fade out.. But that's just because it's a trailer...

And also trailers are made I think before the final soundmix is done... So that's maybe the raison you hear "background noise" just on dialogue pieces....

Or so... I could be wrong also... :-p
 
hi all thank you for all the input, I've added a sample recording on set, can you please take a look at it and give me some tips on making the dialogue more cinematic?
 
it's very hard to say.....without image...

it's more easy to say what to do during recording and during post when we have also visual....

And it also depends is this a long shot ? or extreme close up ? If this was a long shot: don't worry and take the sound of the close shots

If this was a close shot: go closer with the mic... yes and I mean EXTREME close (0,000000000000000000000000000000001 inch out of frame is out of frame)
Now we do come to a point that you also need some "distance" to not have the "I'm a radio DJ effect"... But for now....go as close as possible.

I hear a lot of surrounding sounds, but it are cars ? If the scene is outside in a street, or even a park....it can pass.

I'll try to do some stuff...stay tuned :-p
 
dre83 said:
...
And also trailers are made I think before the final soundmix is done... So that's maybe the raison you hear "background noise" just on dialogue pieces....
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what is usual but many trailers are cut before the picture is finished with the picture cut and even before the sound team is hired. They are also often done by folks who have nothing to do with the actual films post crew. There are post houses that do nothing but trailers. This is part of why trailers will sometimes seem like they are for a different movie and often have clips that are not in the final film.

In some cases the person doing sound design on the trailer is kind of auditioning for the job for the final film. I know that happened on at least two big films but I'm not sure how common it is.
 
Aren't there also: the "we have to convince people to invest money or to sell our stuff trailers" and the "this is going to happen in the movie trailers" ?

For the example, there are a few "isues".

1: the guy is I think not boomed properly... he sounds like the mic is aimed behind him. The girl is ok, but sometimes going "off" also (off mic).
2: I'm not native english and I don't know every single word in english.. But I don't understand what they're saying... They're kinda "mubling"... Speaking way to fast.
It's like for image... When you do a travel shot at 406468464646464648646864 lightyears/second...it's a bit to fast.. That's same for sound...if you speak to fast...
3: Let them speak louder...Specialy the guy. But it's also good aiming which is important here (with the mic....)
It's better to be to much in front then behind someone (in front of the face....)

And the location is in a street with houses, one against one ?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3746174/wav059_EQ_NR.zip

I tried some stuff... I've done only EQ and EQ with some NR (Izotope). It's just a trial....
 
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