Cheaper preamp?

E

esheldon

Member
I've just started looking more thoroughly into audio options, and while I seemed to have found general satisfaction with a Juicedlink preamp and an XLR-balanced shotgun, the price point is running a bit high. I'd love to get the CX211 and a Rode NTG-2, but I just don't think I can find it (even used) on my budget, which I'd say is in the ballpark of $200-$250.

What I can't find is any comparison of the NTG-2 without a preamp. I have read plenty about how much the preamp eliminates hiss that would otherwise result from the camera (I have an HV20) having to gain up the audio, and it certainly sounds great with a preamp in between, but I don't have a sense of just how bad it'll be without one (and with something like http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/589872-REG/Pearstone_8111240_LMT100_Low_to.html instead).

Assuming it's pretty bad, is there something in the middle? Something like the Juicedlink, that'll act as a XLR-to-3.5mm adapter as well as amplify the signal? I don't need it to provide phantom power (assuming I go with the NTG-2, which I don't actually own yet). I've seen something like http://www.nady.com/dmp2.html but have no idea how it sounds.

Or am I better off going with a lower-end, 3.5mm mic, like a Rode Videomic? I can't see how that would avoid the shoddy preamp of the HV20, but I feel like a more expensive mic would be wasted without a preamp.

On a similar note, how does cord length affect a balanced XLR signal vs. a 3.5mm signal? When I eventually start using a boom, will it sound crummy to have a long 3.5mm cable running to the camera? I know in a perfect world I'd be using a Zoom or something similar off-camera, but even that alone is too expensive. I assume a long XLR cable has less distortion than a long 3.5mm, but that's just my gut instinct.

Thanks for the help!
 
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Using an external mic preamp does not "eliminate" or even reduce any noise in the camcorder mic preamp. At best, it can only boost the signal level so that is that much higher than the (fixed) camcorder mic preamp noise. Note that anything you plug into the mic input, whether it is a direct connection to the mic, or a connection to the output of an external mic preamp (or mixer) will go through the same camcorder mic preamp and the same camcorder mic preamp noise.

Use of an external mic preamp/mixer is a popular good-luck charm in indy-land. Certainly there are some circumstances where an external mic preamp/mixer is the right thing to use. But it is not a magic cure-all for all cases. I would certainly not assume it will fix any particular issue without analyzing the root problem first.

Furthermore, I am dubious about whether that transformer is a proper match for the HV20 mic input. The term "high impedance" is undefined. And the HV20 does NOT have a "high impedance" input. It has a "medium impedance" input at best, and a high-impedance source with a medium-impedance load carries its own set of problems. It appears that none of the customer reviews were submitted by anyone who had any knowledge of the technical issues.

A long XLR cable has no more distortion than a long 3.5mm cable. The only possible difference may be that the XLR cable may be less susceptible to picking up ambient noise, assuming it is plugged into a proper balanced input.
 
For starters how about a NTG1? It´s the same beast as the NTG2 but without the battery. If you have phantom power from the Juicedlink you don't need a microphone with a battery - so you can save some bucks here.

Next I would rather buy a used professional field mixer for the same - or even less - money, that the new Juicedlink is. Better bang for the buck. I just got me a nice SQN-3 for 126 Euros from Ebay.

Frank
 
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The cheapest Juicedlink unit doesn't provide phantom power, which is why I was leaning towards the NTG1 - I guess I assumed that in general, phantom power would be limited to more expensive units.

I do understand that I want to boost the signal before the camera such that I can turn the gain on the camera as low as possible (I believe ~1/3 was recommended on the Juicedlink website).

The reviews of the Pearstone transformer explicitly cited using it successfully with the HV20, which sounds promising (I hadn't though to check the reviews previously). I only see low-to-high impedence transformers on B&H, though. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/423360-REG/Hosa_Technology_MIT_156_MIT_156_Low_to_High.html seems to be recommended in a lot of forums posts I've found, though it is no longer available and seems to be the same as the Pearstone. If I don't need a low-to-high impedance adapter, what would I use for an XLR-to-3.5mm adapter?

I also assume that one of those simple transformer cords isn't considered a "proper balanced input", so without a mixer I'd be in poor shape with long XLR cables, right?
 
I've also been reading that an NTG mic paired with an H4 or an H4n can work without a preamp in the middle, but that the H4 outputs very low levels without cranking the gain and thus introducing noise. I can't, however, find any samples of this, so I'm wondering how true it is, and if that's a viable solution, since it seems like an H4 and a Juicedlink are on the same order in terms of cost.
 
Richard Crowley said:
Using an external mic preamp does not "eliminate" or even reduce any noise in the camcorder mic preamp.
Click to expand...

Based upon my own first hand experience of feeding a LINE LEVEL audio signal from a Sound Devices MixPre to a Canon HV20, a good external mixer can greatly improve the noise level by reducing the amount of amplification the cheap HV20 mic preamp circuit has to do. The addition of the MixPre dropped the noise floor by more than 20 dB.
 
But good external mixers cost well beyond my budget - I'm wondering if there's a "good-enough" option that works almost as well?
 
esheldon said:
But good external mixers cost well beyond my budget - I'm wondering if there's a "good-enough" option that works almost as well?
Click to expand...

"Good Enough" is not good enough for very long...

What are you shooting? What do you want to record sound for?

I am asking because there may be a less expensive mic than the NTG-2, depending on what you are filming. ( some subjects require a shotgun mic, but not every one does )
 
This is primarily for a student (seniors in college) feature film, but will also be used for videography work of plays and also in various short film projects. Previously we've used a couple of 3.55mm shotguns (an Azden SMX-10 that was lost, and a borrowed ~$200 Sennheiser) with reasonable success, but there is always a significant amount of noise caused by the HV20's gain that we would like to eliminate. We definitely want a shotgun.

Also I know it's majorly frowned upon but this will likely be mounted on-camera in many circumstances.

I've also just started reading about how the AT875 is significantly more sensitive than the NTG-2, which means it needs less gain in general, right? Though it does need phantom power... hmm....
 
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I guess here's one simple question - if I do get an NTG-2 and use a simple transformer cable to get it into my HV20's mic jack, will I end up with better or worse sound than with a VideoMic? I know "better sound" is in the ears of the beholder, but I just want to make sure I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot by impulse-purchasing an NTG-2 and then not being able to find a suitably cheap preamp, thus ending up in a worse position with a better microphone.
 
Well, the main benefit of the NTG2 over the video mic is the balanced connection, which will allow you to get the mic much closer to the source, which will give you better sound. If you are mounting the mic directly to the camera, the quality difference will in a large part be negated by the added room noise that you are picking up. The NTG2 may sound better, but you will still not be happy with the end result.

Why not get an NTG2 and an impedance adapter now, plugged straight into the camera, and save for a juicedlink later? This is one of those things where you really can't get any cheaper than the juicedlink without sacrificing quality.

Here is a video I did with the NTG2 through a 30ft xlr cable into an impedance adapter (the pearstone you linked to) into the HFS100. I took the audio in post, added a little compression and evened out the volumes between people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdjSrY8ZwwY

These were recorded in meeting rooms, some of which had somewhat significant vent noise in the background. By getting the mic right above the person and right out of frame, we were able to get fairly good audio. You don't need to necessarily boom the mic, but just put it on a mic stand closer to your subject, and you will get much better audio than having it on the camera.
 
That video sounded great, Mark. Unfortunately it seems that an NTG-2 would run me at least $200 on its own, even used, and it's one of the few shotguns that can be battery powered as well as draw phantom power in that price range. Therefore I've decided to start off with a VideoMic for now and upgrade to an XLR-mic, hopefully with a mixer, once my budget allows or some crazy deal pops up.

Thanks for all the help!
 
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