I have not implied that the BMPCC4k is the new form- , just the exact opposite- it is awful IMO- a step backward in ergonomics. Prime example of function follow form for uneducated consumer...
Canon's Pocket Cinema Camera ?
- Thread starter TheDingo
- Start date
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
We agree 
roxics
Veteran
I was playing around with one of these in a Best Buy a couple weeks ago. Maybe not this camera specifically but some Canon just like it. I forgot how much I missed that form factor. It's a nice change from the side grip handle, which I also love.
I think the only thing I would change these days and it might sound weird, but I would put the mount for the LCD screen on the back with full articulation. It would still flip closed on the side, but with the hinge on the back like a C100mkII style hinge, you could flip it around to see it from either side of the camera.
I say weird though because when it's open, the screen would be in the back, so ergonomically it would feel kind of strange. I think ultimately it would be more useful though.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Canon has a whole line of these type little cameras, XA-25, etc. To my knowledge, the XF-400/405 are the top ones though as they shoot 4K 60p at 150 Mbps and were the last ones to be introduced. After my experience with them on this film, I could see a purpose for buying one, they are really handy in comparison to my C200/300 MKII. If you need to jump in a subjects car or shoot them going through Target, Guerilla style, XF-400/405 passes you off as a hobbyist, which is incredibly handy. But I have to also say my new iPhone 8Plus video seems almost as good, although I think with Filmic Pro I can get 100Mbps instead of 150 MBps? But that servo zoom, yes!
Now imagine this grip handle with a camera cube the size of Micro BMD attached to it and the focus wheel on the opposite side. A 3-3.5" articulating lcd with detachable loupe where the VF is now. That's the new form factor would like to see. The Canon pocket gets closer to it...
The camcorder form factor falls apart when you attach a lens to it and all the weight shifts up front. When you put your hand on the barrel of the lens you get even more front heavy. Unstable, front heavy setup that puts a lot of torque on your right wrist. You can't swap sides either...
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combatentropy
Veteran
Sure, if you attach a zoom or even a large cine prime. But the DSLR has the same problem, so so does this Canon XC-15. The only body without that problem is the shoulder style, which has several other drawbacks.
I like small photo primes, so this body would not be front-heavy.
I like the handicam style over DSLR for a few reasons:
- larger battery: you can fit a Sony L-series battery on the back and have 3 to 4 hours of battery life. You can attach such one to a DSLR, but it gets in the way of the viewfinder or viewscreen or both. Plus: cable.
- more room on top. Sony and Panasonic have shown us that you can fit an XLR adapter, but what does it look like with a short shotgun and maybe a wireless lav receiver? Getting a little crowded up there...
The handicam is shrink-wrapped to the requirements. It is as small as you can get, in my opinion, while taking into acccount: battery, XLR, and the size of the human hand.
I like small photo primes, so this body would not be front-heavy.
I like the handicam style over DSLR for a few reasons:
- larger battery: you can fit a Sony L-series battery on the back and have 3 to 4 hours of battery life. You can attach such one to a DSLR, but it gets in the way of the viewfinder or viewscreen or both. Plus: cable.
- more room on top. Sony and Panasonic have shown us that you can fit an XLR adapter, but what does it look like with a short shotgun and maybe a wireless lav receiver? Getting a little crowded up there...
The handicam is shrink-wrapped to the requirements. It is as small as you can get, in my opinion, while taking into acccount: battery, XLR, and the size of the human hand.
I don't think that the C series (100, 200, 300) has much of that problem due to the form factor, especially with photo lenses. I think camcorder would. The problem with the C series cameras is that they are way too big and heavy. you can also have a handle that slides back and forward to balance out the lens...
cpreston
Veteran
The C series form factor was Canon's attempt to create an interchangeable lens camera with the ergonomics of a handicam. I just don't think people realized that because they think it looks too heavy. Especially with the C100, you can tilt the hand grip down, throw on a small lens, grip the camera underneath, and put it up to your eye. It is a perfectly stable and comfortable shooting form if you can handle the weight. Throw on a shoulder strap and you can walk around with it hanging from you side and then bring it up to your eye when you need to.
Throw on one of the CN-E lenses with the servo grip and the weight distribution becomes more normalized and the controls become the same as a handicam. It is just heavier. That is the tradeoff of the large sensor.
Also, one of the easiest way to shoot with these cameras is to attach a shoulder strap and push against the strap for the third point of contact.
The one way the Canon cameras don't work is as shoulder cams.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Agreed. Many of us have spent thousands of dollars trying to make the C series cameras into shoulder mounted units but the Franken Rigs are still an ergonomic nightmare compared to a proper shoulder mounted camera. I had hope that with the intro of the C700, that Canon would shift that form factor to the smaller cameras or at least hopefully they will for the C300 MKIII or C400, whatever it will be called. Fingers crossed. I had the C700 FF on my shoulder a few weeks back. It's not bad but too long for many applications. But it's a step in the right direction. Shooting with my C200 cradled though with the 70-200 2.8 IS II is growing on me, it's not a bad way to shoot b-roll at all, three points of contact, four if I mount my Zacuto EVF Pro. If I hold it into my shoulder or even hook the edge of the VCT Pro tripod plate on the edge of my heavy duty belt, it doesn't get too fatiguing. I am a big fan of handheld over gimbal these days. gimbals are beginning to look so cheesy and robotic, no life, no organic human quality to the images.
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Bassman2003
Veteran
What I do not understand is why can't this industry make a camera like an XF-400 but in a pro level release? Take the GH5s for example. The image quality is excellent in a small body. Why can't this be made in this camcorder size and design where working pros could love using it? Otherwise we have settle for a more prosumer camera or a still camera style body. If you are filming outside no problem. If you are inside I bet the results would not be as good.
NorBro
Major Contributor
I know not everyone agrees with the following, but I think the same thing only with Canon DSLRs.
Each morning I wake up and check if a new one is in the works with pro level video features, ha.
It pains me to see Panasonic and Sony have them, and the closest I can have is a 1DX Mark II or 5D Mark IV, which are great but overpriced for me personally, and do not have many of the features I'm looking for.
Which is why I am definitely interested in this new Canon camera...
Each morning I wake up and check if a new one is in the works with pro level video features, ha.
It pains me to see Panasonic and Sony have them, and the closest I can have is a 1DX Mark II or 5D Mark IV, which are great but overpriced for me personally, and do not have many of the features I'm looking for.
Which is why I am definitely interested in this new Canon camera...
That's exactly my point- these cameras are the right form factor but they are too heavy for this form factor. That makes this form factor unsuitable for this size cameras. And this not only goes for cameras: lenses, FFs, motors, supports all add to the weight. That's why this pocket may be the ticket. If they make it a complete package. All the pieces are there- just need integration. Small light weight camera body with proper grip, light weight electronic lenses. All they need to add is a proper monitor/view finder and focus wheel and voila- a new era is born!!!!
cpreston
Veteran
Maybe. If Canon makes it an ILC, though, the lenses are going to throw off the balance. After having used an XC15 for awhile, I would prefer the next iteration to be an ILC.
Of course- ILC and Speed Boosters open up a whole new world of optics.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Seems simple, it doesn't fit into their marketing segmentation strategy. They could make all kinds of wondrous iterations with every feature that we all want at a size and price we want. But they have research that shows that their current marketing strategy makes shareholders more dividends and profit. If they made such a camera, the sales of the cameras higher up in the line would almost cease and their profits and stock would take a dive. There's no other logical explanation, it's a business.
They had that same approach when RED came in in 2007. 10 years later RED surpassed all of them in the high and mid high range and is second only to ARRI. One would think that thought them something. If not there will be another RED....this time from China perhaps...
Besides- what made them the most dividents by far was not even on their radar- the 5D2 and the little video feature they added. I went to the HD EXPO show back in 2008 or 9 and asked them about it. Believe me - they had absolutely no clue -ZERO
Besides- what made them the most dividents by far was not even on their radar- the 5D2 and the little video feature they added. I went to the HD EXPO show back in 2008 or 9 and asked them about it. Believe me - they had absolutely no clue -ZERO
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deltoidjohn
Veteran
I think if there's one thing this thread proves it's that you can't have a camera that keeps everyone happy.
ntouched
Well-known member
Hey Optitek, that's exactly what's happening right now in China with Kinefinity! They are the NEW RED!!! They're finally starting to figure this thing out with the Terra 4K (with updated OS firmware) and the MAVO line of products. Best BANG for the buck right now if you're looking for a true cinematic modular camera system. PROAV in the UK now representing them as Authorized dealer and service center.
Bassman2003
Veteran
While I know you are right and we all deal with the reality, I still see a divide between "video" style production and cinema style production. I do not believe a 1" pro level XF400 style fixed lens camera would hurt C200 or Varicam sales. If Panasonic can make a GH5 still camera with 4k 10bit 4:2:2 and sell it for $2,000 wouldn't that be more of a segment killer to the EV-1 or Varicam? My frustration with the industry is the withholding of tech that is already in existing cameras. In the Video space, the higher levels do not seem to exist much anymore with the death of the 2/3" tanks. To me, a camera with a servo zoom does not do the same type of work that a cinema camera is used for. So why hold back the servo zoom cameras because the cinema line is what it is? Its 2018. everything should be 10bit 4:2:2 if the camera is above consumer grade imho. End soapbox...
puredrifting
Major Contributor
While I know you are right and we all deal with the reality, I still see a divide between "video" style production and cinema style production. I do not believe a 1" pro level XF400 style fixed lens camera would hurt C200 or Varicam sales. If Panasonic can make a GH5 still camera with 4k 10bit 4:2:2 and sell it for $2,000 wouldn't that be more of a segment killer to the EV-1 or Varicam? My frustration with the industry is the withholding of tech that is already in existing cameras. In the Video space, the higher levels do not seem to exist much anymore with the death of the 2/3" tanks. To me, a camera with a servo zoom does not do the same type of work that a cinema camera is used for. So why hold back the servo zoom cameras because the cinema line is what it is? Its 2018. everything should be 10bit 4:2:2 if the camera is above consumer grade imho. End soapbox...
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