Canon 4K C200 and C400 at NAB?

cowpunk52 said:
I don't know why Canon does the things it does, but outputting is outputting. If the C500 is spitting out a 10-bit uncompressed signal from HD-SDI ports with a Digic DV III, then the processor is not the limiting factor.
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I think that you miss 3G-SDI HW, these outputs are not from DIGIC DV III.
If you turn off 3G-SDI than C500 (I think) output only HD-SDI in 8bit.

In specification are these monitor ports as "monitor video out", HD-SDI out in specification C500 has only 8bit.
So I think that the C500 monitor outputs are from another HW, it is not direct output from DIGIC DV III.
But yes, I hope that I'm wrong .-) .

edit: for example hasn't the monitor video out an embeded timecode? I don't know but this is monitor only output in specification.
 
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Thanks. It makes sense for me.

I wish 10bit HD-SDI output from Digic DV III but I think, that there is some HW problem. If C500 can does this (in HD-SDI output) then it will be more real.
 
Pave1 said:
Thanks. It makes sense for me.

I wish 10bit HD-SDI output from Digic DV III but I think, that there is some HW problem. If C500 can does this (in HD-SDI output) then it will be more real.
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I just tested my C500's monitor HD-SDI output 1 with my Odyssey 7Q and was able to record 10-bit prores from it cleanly. I did this with the 3G-SDI outputs turned off. Since this connection is being fed by the Digic DV III, it seems like there is another pipeline issue at play with that single HD-SDI by the TC and Genlock connections.
 
Thanks for testing.

One more option is that turning 3G-SDI output off works only on the one part HW of the C500 (only for an output part).
Because there is also 2K option for monitoring then it makes sense that it is not part of the Digic DV III processor output.

I still think that Digic DV III has no option for 10bit HD-SDI out, I think that there are two lines (one HW is DIGIC DV III in 8bit only for internal recording with HD-SDI out in 8bit and the second HW is HD/2K and 4K line with 10bit or 12bit 3G-SDI output + monitoring without embedded timecode).

edit: I think that Digic DV III processor is only for internal recording+HD-SDI out 8bit and HD/2K/4K 10bit and 12bit has its own HW with 3G-SDI output (+monitoring).
 
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Some interesting copy/paste from the C500 manual:

In 4K and 2K mode the C500 can use only Canon-log gamma (without CP) for the external 3G-SDI output (monitor output has option for LUTs, zebras, markers, magnification, it has only HD resolution, etc.). In the internally HD recording (CF) during the 2K/4K mode you have the HD-SDI or HDMI outputs (I don't know if you can use CP but it is Digic DV III HW line). During 4K and 2K modes the picture output from the 3G-SDI terminals and the picture recorded on a CF card will differ in image quality due the differences in the signal processing algorithm.

In 2K mode you have the option for 2048 or 1920x1080/444 or 422 12bit or 10bit output for the external recording (3G-SDI + monitoring).
(page 63)

In MXF mode (HD resolution only) you can record only 1920x1080 in 8bit (and output only with HDMI or HD-SDI terminals).
(page 65)

edit: on pages 139-141 is nothing about MXF mode and HD-SDI output bit depth, also in specification at the end has only 2K mode 10bit specified, MXF HD-SDI output has no info about bit depth.

----

I think that "MXF mode" is the C500 Digic DV III HW line, in 2K or 4K is Digic DV III HW line only for the internal offline recording to CF cards at HD 8bit only. 2K 1920x1080 mode in 10bit or 12bit needs another HW line with the different signal processing algorithm.
 
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Pave1 said:
I think that "MXF mode" is the C500 Digic DV III HW line, in 2K or 4K is Digic DV III HW line only for the internal offline recording to CF cards at HD 8bit only. 2K 1920x1080 mode in 10bit or 12bit needs another HW line with the different signal processing algorithm.
Click to expand...

Yes, this makes a lot of sense. Good reasoning.
 
Pave1 said:
Some interesting copy/paste from the C500 manual:

In 4K and 2K mode the C500 can use only Canon-log gamma (without CP) for the external 3G-SDI output (monitor output has option for LUTs, zebras, markers, magnification, it has only HD resolution, etc.). In the internally HD recording (CF) during the 2K/4K mode you have the HD-SDI or HDMI outputs (I don't know if you can use CP but it is Digic DV III HW line). During 4K and 2K modes the picture output from the 3G-SDI terminals and the picture recorded on a CF card will differ in image quality due the differences in the signal processing algorithm.

In 2K mode you have the option for 2048 or 1920x1080/444 or 422 12bit or 10bit output for the external recording (3G-SDI + monitoring).
(page 63)

In MXF mode (HD resolution only) you can record only 1920x1080 in 8bit (and output only with HDMI or HD-SDI terminals).
(page 65)

----

I think that "MXF mode" is the C500 Digic DV III HW line, in 2K or 4K is Digic DV III HW line only for the internal offline recording to CF cards at HD 8bit only. 2K 1920x1080 mode in 10bit or 12bit needs another HW line with the different signal processing algorithm.
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Where did you get these two lines? What are they? Do they imply two different processors? I do not think so - I've never seen/read about "lines". So, it's the same Digic DV III but the signal processing algorithms are different.
 
cowpunk52 - Thanks. But for all of us would be better if I'll be wrong, I like the vision of the firmware upgrade for my C100.

silyn - 4K and 2K video are not processed in Digic DV III. I have no time to explain this to you, but try some Canon's White Paper about C500.
 
Pave1 said:
silyn - 4K and 2K video are not processed in Digic DV III. I have no time to explain this to you, but try some Canon's White Paper about C500.
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OK, I've read Canon's white paper - you mean
http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/white_papers/White_Paper_originatinghighqualityc500.pdf ?
I do not see how you concluded from it that 4k and 2k video are not processed by Digic DV III. I think what you are missing is that everything that happens in camera is controlled by the processor. Including how data are read from the sensor - I guess that part makes you believe in the two-line theory. But the transport mechanism and encoding and the whole implementation of the 3G SDI interface are all done in the firmware run by the processor.

What is even more interesting that the white paper states explicitly that conceptually there is no difference in how all these things are implemented in C500 and C300 - the key here is that no debayering is involved (see page 4 at the bottom).
 
Sorry, I don't agree with you. Digic DV III is an old signal procesor which can't delivery (at the same time) RGB444 12bit output and 8bit 422 for the internally recording with full processing. You can't use Custom Picture profiles at 4K or 2K RGB444 or YCC422, you can use only the canon-log gamma (with only the basic setting, any other options). So I think that 10bit output option (2K in 1920x1080 mode) in the C500 is not product of the Digic DV III processor but an another (maybe a very simply) HW "line". But the C500 in MXF mode has the full Custom Preset option, but output only 8bit (to HDMI or HD-SDI terminals), in this case there is no signal on 3G-SDI outputs (or on monitors outputs).

For me this all mean that the firmware upgrade of the C300 can't product 10bit HD-SDI out (because the C500 outputs 10bit only via another HW line which doesn't include Digic DV III with full processing), this processor delivery only the internal CF recording in this case.

But I hope that I'm wrong .-) . We will see this as soon as possible - next week at NAB, I hope that my speculations will be wrong.
 

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The figure 16 from the Canon-Log Transfer Characteristic White Paper with an additional text:
 

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Pave1 said:
You can't use Custom Picture profiles at 4K or 2K RGB444 or YCC422, you can use only the canon-log gamma (with only the basic setting, any other options).
Click to expand...

This is true, but interestingly enough you are able to output a LUT-applied image from the Monitor HD-SDI ports (Rec709, Wide DR, or DCI-P3) and record that picture externally.
 
Yes, this is a monitor output. But be careful if you shot in 2K or 4K because downscale or processing is only for monitor purpose (page 146 - Notes!). Also conversion from Canon-log gamma to wdr or Rec709 is only via the applied LUT for monitoring (I think it is not a full quality processed wdr or Rec709 gamma).

But if you shot 1920x1080 HD with canon-log than you have option to use this monitor HD-SDI out for 10bit recording (for example to recorder without 3G SDI input) with no doubt. But it is the second HW "C500" line so C300/C100 has no option for this output.

It would be interesting to see if the Canon makes some firmware ugrade for 10bit output for C300 (or even for C100).
 
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Talked to Canon today. Trying to get the lowdown. A lot of buzz about the c500 monitor out into Od7q.

My view as a frequent flyer and in the sticks location shooter?

I am thinking to get another Odq7.

4k, pro res, internal cf card all recording at once. Huge backup factor. And extra onset monitor, backup monitor , etc, etc.

This is a great thing.
 
lightstrum said:
Talked to Canon today. Trying to get the lowdown. A lot of buzz about the c500 monitor out into Od7q.

My view as a frequent flyer and in the sticks location shooter?

I am thinking to get another Odq7.

4k, pro res, internal cf card all recording at once. Huge backup factor. And extra onset monitor, backup monitor , etc, etc.

This is a great thing.
Click to expand...
Anything on the 1DC? There has been a lot of speculation on some upgrade for that camera as well.
 
electricjib said:
Anything on the 1DC? There has been a lot of speculation on some upgrade for that camera as well.
Click to expand...

I pried and pried till I cried. Upshot? "You'll be happy". So, I have no clue.

My feeling is that the c500 type body series will continue to be improved and upgraded and evolve into mkII and that is wonderful.

What I (also) really want is for Canon to continue to evolve the 1Dc form factor and its beautiful 1.3 crop.

And, after screwing around with a 70d, and though I am heavily invested in the CN E primes, I no longer buy into the manual focus only for video mantra. I feel it is going like ABS brakes- they evolved to the point where there is no way I can manually outdo them.

Canon! Please add the advanced auto focus to 1Dc 4k. At least the version that is in the 70d, not the one in the c100.
 
lightstrum said:
I pried and pried till I cried. Upshot? "You'll be happy". So, I have no clue.

My feeling is that the c500 type body series will continue to be improved and upgraded and evolve into mkII and that is wonderful.

What I (also) really want is for Canon to continue to evolve the 1Dc form factor and its beautiful 1.3 crop.

And, after screwing around with a 70d, and though I am heavily invested in the CN E primes, I no longer buy into the manual focus only for video mantra. I feel it is going like ABS brakes- they evolved to the point where there is no way I can manually outdo them.

Canon! Please add the advanced auto focus to 1Dc 4k. At least the version that is in the 70d, not the one in the c100.
Click to expand...
I have been longing for good autofocus. i may always have a love for manual, but AF can be not just nice, but a great tool.
 
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