Camera selection - High end depositions

M

MLVinc

Member
hello,

I am new to this forum but have over 30 years in legal video production. My most recent camera is the HVX200 using the P2 cards as well as a Firestore for simultaneous backup/capture.

I want to buy a new camera and have been looking at the AVCCAM cameras.

I have been reading some of the threads about backup (backing up SD cards) but in my work, I need to capture onto 2 devices simultaneously to insure my recording.

do you feel the SD cards are so reliable that this is not necessary? My thinking is using a ACCCAM to record with and a Firestore connected as backup.. the HVX200 has the necessary IEEE to connect the Firestore

My question is, 1) is the ACCCAM SD card format so reliable that simultaneous backup recording is not necessary and if backup is necessary, 2) what AVCCAM camera has XLR audio inputs as well as IEEE output other than the HMC80?

I would like to use the smaller handheld cameras (on tripods) than the shoulder mounts for size and weight considerations. from what I understand the HMC150 does not have the IEEE output...

any recommendations? the camera must also have the date/time stamp function.

i have used Panasonic products for years but am open to other brands.

also, once i purchase another camera, my low time, inside use, in a case, well maintained HVX200 will be for sale.

thanks in advance. great forum
 
I can't help you much here as I don't keep up with cameras outside of the HDSLR's, but from my experience SD cards are very reliable and the only problems I've had with them were my fault. If you really, really would be in the **** if you lost some footage, then perhaps you should take all those precautions like simultaneously recording on two drives, but if you back up immediately after finishing recording you should have no problems in 99.999% of cases.

One precaution I like to take, for example, is only using 8GB or smaller cards so if one does fail (hasn't happened yet) I'll only lose a minimal amount of data. If I lost a 32GB card I'd be in much more trouble.

So, I guess what I'm saying is I do feel that SD cards are reliable enough that all those precautions are not truly necessary, but then, I don't do any work that would leave me totally screwed if I lost some footage (I do mostly shorts and promotional type videos at the moment, so I could always just go back and do it again).

Hopefully someone else will be along shortly with some advice as far as the cameras themselves go. Perhaps you could try posting in another, camera-specific section?
 
I use both a P2 cam and a HMC40 with sd cards. Most of the avchd cams have hdmi and or component out so that opens up options besides firewire. I haven't had any sd card failures, but many have, and the concensus is that it is no match for P2 reliability.

Check me on this, but I believe some of the new canon cams, which record to CF cards can record to both slots at the same time, but the higher end Canon cams aren't cheap.

I'm not sure why you want to replace your HVX, but a HPX170 is a similar, but much improved P2 cam that sells below 4k, so if you already have P2, it isn't too much more than a HMC150.

Grant
 
While the SD cards are quite reliable when you take appropriate precautions (such as not getting fake/counterfeit SD cards!) I would encourage you to go with your gut and look for a way to record with backup media. The prospect of screwing up a once-in-a-lifetime (hopefully) event like a deposition, would make ANY risk an unacceptable risk, IMO. I'd want to at least be running a DVD recorder or something simultaneously, so that there's no chance of you somehow being the cause of a problem for either side of the litigation. I've never done legal videography, but I'm familiar with it and the stakes can be very high and you really, really don't want to be calling up your client and telling them they're going to have to re-depose a hostile witness because you saved five bucks on an SD card by buying it on ebay, and it failed to record properly!

The Panasonics that have time/date stamp are the AVCCAM HMC40/80/150, and the HPX170. The HMC80 does have firewire output and you could use it simultaneously with a firestore, but you can only do that when in standard-def DV mode. If your client is demanding HD, then that's not an option. The HPX170 would be the better choice in that case, because you could record to onboard P2 and simultaneously to an offboard firestore.

You could send the analog output from any of these cameras out to an external DVD recorder, although there was some question about date/time on the analog output. I know you could get date/time on analog by using the video out OSD feature, but that would probably also mean recording the red dot. If the red dot is acceptable, and your "safety" recording being a standard-def DVD is acceptable, then that would be a potential option for you.

You could also use an HDMI recorder, but as of right now I don't think they're really cost-effective for this price bracket of camcorder. The only one really on the market right now would be the NanoFlash, at $2900 it costs as much as the HMC150 would. Someday there may be the Atomos Ninja, that remains to be seen, but even then I think you'd be facing a similar situation about the red dot being recorded.
 
ggrantly said:
I'm not sure why you want to replace your HVX, but a HPX170 is a similar, but much improved P2 cam that sells below 4k, so if you already have P2, it isn't too much more than a HMC150.
Click to expand...
One good reason (for this line of work) is because the HVX doesn't record a time/date stamp into the video. The HPX170 does though. And frankly that may be the way to go; since the OP already has the FireStore and already has the P2 cards, I would think going to the HPX170 over the HVX200 would be the natural and obvious upgrade path.
 
On the topic of recorders, here is another firewire recorder that uses a mil spec swapable HD. I offload P2 using the Maxell Extreme adapters using the 250 gig EX Media drives and this stuff is pretty nice hardware. You can dump from the HPX without a computer, but the HPX will not power the drive, so you do need some power. If you use a laptop, the drives can be powered via usb also. If you get the VC102 unit, it is a Firestore replacement using the swapable drives and supports DVCHDPro but not AVCHD. I believe it will record DVCProHD directly to .mov files (check that). It has an internal battery and an available external backup.

Supposedly you can drop the drives on the floor, but I haven't tested that feature...yet.

Grant

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/747063-REG/Maxell_iVDR_VC102_Video_Capture.html
 
thanks

thanks

thanks for the answers

there is a Datavideo DN-400 HD backup that uses component video but that runs $1700

i have 3 videographers, working on a 4th, so i am looking at 2 or 3 of everything when i make an equipment change..some cameras get handed down. ...for instance, we have 2 supercams behind the HVX200

so i want to sell the HVX and replace the supercams and we all end up with the same type camera or i can have the better camera like i do now.

can anyone recommend a reliable portable DVD recorder? i may be able to get away with it as backup without the time/date stamp being recorded. i am sure if i told the client that if my primary capture method failed but i have it on backup without the time date stamp, i doubt they would care

as it is, i am recording with the HVX and no one has made the time/date stamp an issue and of course we could get a generator...the reason i want the change is to get to a smaler and newer camera than the supercams (which do have time/date stamp)..the HVX is overkill for what i do but i still need a good camera when i am asked to do a "day in the life" or something similar
 
MLVinc,

The VC102 camera adapter with 250gig drive and the adapter to make it work with a mac or pc is under 1k. I don't know how you archive, but you could use the hot swap mil spec drives. They are a bit expensive, but should be durable.

Grant
 
If you go with an HMC, make sure you get the best cards. Sandisk Extreme and ATP Promax are resin encapsulated, shock (1000g rated), weather, EMF, dust etc proof. (Not sure about Panasonic Gold or Lexar pro - I suspect they may be as well).

I've had other brands literally fall apart on me. I've also had one card die on me mid shoot. Had to send it to the manufacturer (ADATA) in order to get the footage off of it.
 
hi grant..i took a look at the VC103 online...thanks! i presently use Firestores (have 2) but will need a 3rd here shortly..any advantage with going with the VC102 over the firestores?
 
I like the idea that they have a mil spec on impact etc. so you would hope they are less fragile than a normal drive for field use. They have both usb and firewire ports. The VC102 has multiple power sources, internal battery, external battery, and AC. The VC102 will encode directly to .mov from a 170, so you have immediate playback. You could burn a disk from your laptop at the end of the deposition (maybe a firestore can do that too, dunno). If you have multiple drive units, you can fill one and swap it out and keep recording. Although the drives are quite a bit more than econo drives, you could end up using these for your backups, much like tape, though you would have to justify the cost versus the time to backup to another media type. Backup reliability is another whole topic, pick your poison. I am not sure about the reliability of Firestore, it seems like they were a bit spotty when they cam out with the original HVX, so they may have improved. When you get your hands on the Maxell hardware, it feels really solid.

I have been using the drives with the standard adapter for a while, and plan to purchase the VC102 in the next few months. For me the only real down sides are the elevated HD cost, and that for a P2 field download, using the standard iVDR adapter, you need AC power, you can't power the drive via firewire from cam. I use a mini inverter and have done it using a small Bescor brick or my vehicle to power the inverter. When plugged into a CPU, it can be powered via USB or firewire.

Grant

BH has a package deal on a drive unit, iDVR adapter, and VC102 for under a grand. If you do buy the VC102, let me know if it lives up to its billing.
 
Old thread but I thought I would throw in my two cents for future readers.
I use the HMC80 with the firestore. I shoot in DV mode and only use my SD card as my back up. I use the files from the firestore via firewire to the NLE program (came w/ camera) drop it in time line, set chapter markers and burn away. Nice flow but it is one more step that I would like to do, but VHS is no longer an option.

The camera is not great. Low light ability stinks. Camera looks impressive, to attorneys, during depo. Image looks very acceptable as deposition footage, but I wouldn't use it for an corporate job.
Look for the new camera 130/160 (Oct 2011?) as a good option, too.

Now my iVDR-102 is not syncing to this camera... still need to figure out why it isn't.
 
I use to shoot some wedding videos on sony a z5 and z7 which recorded to tape and had a cf card attachment that hooked to the back so that we could record to tape as a back-up and the cf cards for editiing. I would think that with depositions you would always want to have hard copy that was made on site. Just my thoughts.
 
I'm thinking the soon to be released panasonic AC130 would be a good choice it will be able to record to two sd cards at the same time. From their press release: "Key new features include two SD Memory Card slots for relay or simultaneous recording,"

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but have some questions for you on the legal video area. will send a Private message.
 
That dual record feature will be a real bonus for the SDHC crowd and is already available on some Canon cams which use CF cards.

Grant
 
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