Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

D

David_M_Payne

Well-known member
Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

Hi all. I have a quandary to solve regarding my second camera selection. First off let me tell you that this will be my first movie project, so I'm very much a novice though I have some friends who know a little more than I do about it, and I'm going to be getting some help at the local community college and the local university from their theater depts. Also I'm 56 and a partially disabled Vietnam vet, (Agent Orange Diabetic) so I've been around a bit and have a pretty good understanding of how the world works, though not too much on this new equipment I have or the world I'm entering here. I am however very creative story wise, as you can tell by my web site. I'm tired of just writing these tales, its time to put one of them to film. (Well OK DV, and then DVD and perhaps from there to film depending on how I do at some of the film festivals etc) That’s why I wrote Holy War, it isn't as complex as some of my other tales and yet it is an interesting story so I've been told. (I am a strong agnostic, so my tales are for the most part not for the fundamentalist religious set.)

At this point I have used my savings (No credit cards yet!) to buy a DVX 100ap, and an AT897 mic, as well as a gitzo boom pole with a nice mic holder that cost more than the damn pole! I found a neat HD 17.1 inch flat screen LCD TV (It is called Initial) that accepts all kinds of inputs including the two my DVX has, to use as a video monitor from of all places the Walmart super store! The guy at Moondog computers who built my computer recommended it as a HD computer monitor, and it works great as a camera monitor. It gives you a nice big picture to see if you got the shot you are looking for, assuming I know what I'm looking for, but that is another matter that will only be answered by doing it! It also had a built in DVD player, all for 595.00

I also have a pretty fast computer. It has a 2.4-gig AMD thunderbird processor, 1.25 gigs of ram, an internal 80gig HD, a 200gig HD (For video editing etc) and an external fire wired 300gig HD just in case I run out of room. I've got the Gainward geforce3 video card which has 128MB DDR of ram itself, and the creative sound blaster Audigy2 sound card 7.1 (or 6.1 or 5.1) and a creative 5.1 surround sound speaker package to mix down the audio on. I have a Sony DRU-500AX DVD burner to record on after postproduction is done. I also have a Matrox RT100X video editing card, as well as the complete Adobe premium pro software suite, Adobe premiere pro, Adobe Encore DVD, Adobe Audition that came as a package with the Matrox. I also ordered the Adobe After Effects Pro program as my project is light SciFi, and I'll need to do some special effects. (The story is called Holy War, you can read the short story it is based on, on my web site at; http://www.holywar2.com/ I've just finished the first draft of the screenplay on the Movie Magic screenwriter program. Boy what a neat program it is, it formats etc everything correctly and an old guy like me needs all the help he can get in this world of computers!)

I think I'm set on the story, the computer and software and the first camera, but now I wonder about camera no 2. As the DVX is limited in its ability to do both wide angle and telephoto shots I'm wondering if I should buy a different camera like the Cannon XL2, though I'm not too sure I'll need much of those kinds of shots, as the story is mostly done in close settings. Also the lenses for the Cannon are pretty pricey from what I've seen. (I could rent one for the few shots I may need if the DVX isn't up to snuff?) I do want to do it in 16X9 though, and the DVX can do that though it has to cheat to do that and the Cannon doesn’t. How good is the DVX in 16X9 mode anyway?

I've discussed my film project with my Professor in a film class I'm taking, and he is very interested in the project and has been giving me a lot of pointers, as well as helping me with the contacts in the theater departments and other depts. I'll need at both the local university and community college here for the rest of the talent both in front and behind the cameras, as well as some of the settings. (I have some people at work who are in, front and back, and he thinks that finding the rest of the talent at the two schools will be easy considering the story and the equipment I already have. They have to work on spec just like I do, but hey Holy War is a good story, and look at what the Blair Witch did and it wasn't that good of a story IMHO! And I have much better equipment too!) But he says that I really need to think about at least one more camera to shoot this movie with, maybe two. He pointed out that trying to shoot a film with multiple characters and lots of dialog is very time consuming if you have to do every thing on one camera. I think he is right and I found a way to come up with the extra money by tapping my retirement account for a loan. The trick here is that I can only do it once, I have to pay it all back before I retire, (Assuming I live that long!) and because of fiscal constraints, current house payment etc, I need to keep the loan to around 8-10 grand. (The good news is that I'll be paying the loan back to myself, as well as all the interest!)

So I'm looking for some input from you guys here as to what is my best move to make on any more equipment I may need. When I get the new camera I'll get another of the HD TV's, so there is 600.00 right off the top. Do you think I may need a DAT deck and mics for sound, or is having two cameras with four channels available enough for sound? I do have a friend who records music and he has a DAT stereo deck (that just got passed up by his new board with 24 track recording to a CD burner) and some good mics that he will loan me, but I hate to borrow stuff. How about mics? I'm leaning towards getting two lav mics, (Wired or wireless?) but is there a pair that is good enough quality and allows me to stay in my price range with another camera, etc or should I just get another good boom (Other?) mic that is good indoors? And I need some lights, though I have another friend who has those too.

So now you know what I have to shoot it with, any suggestions on anything else I may need especially the other camera will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I now await the Vulcan nerve pinch from Dave for making a long post and asking questions that I could find the answers to if I had just read the entire site!  ;)

David
 
Re: Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

Hopefully, others will chime in with more and better advice, but if I was in the position to buy a second camera...I'd get another DVX simply to make footage-matching easier.

However, you might also want to consider just renting a 2nd camera for the shoot if the rental porice would be significantly less than an outright purchase. (It isn't always.)

Dan
 
Re: Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

[quote author=GenJerDan link=board=Links;num=1108275721;start=0#1 date=02/13/05 at 03:46:29]Hopefully, others will chime in with more and better advice, but if I was in the position to buy a second camera...I'd get another DVX simply to make footage-matching easier.

However, you might also want to consider just renting a 2nd camera for the shoot if the rental price would be significantly less than an outright purchase.  (It isn't always.)

Dan[/quote]

Yeah, that was one of my thoughts. I prefer to own the cameras and related equipment, so that I have it when I need it, and so that I have control over the project. It would also be easier to shoot for the camera operators if only one kind of camera is used. That way they (and I) only have to learn how to use one kind of camera.

What I'm hoping for here is also any input on the rest of the equipment I have as far as if it is enough, or if there is something that I haven't thought of or read about here that might come in handy or be necessary for the film. I can only take out one loan, so I want to try and get everything I might need at that time. As a novice I'm sure that there are things that I haven't considered that might come back to bite me on the butt later on, and I hope to avoid that by discussing it here. So any input is greatly appreciated by me you guys. Thanks.

David

PS there is a $300.00 rebate on the DVX right now where I got my first one.
 
Re: Camera quandary, DVX again, or?



i am sure barry or someone can answer this better than i can but in my opinion you really can't match footage of the dvx in 24p with anything but a dvx-100a (or the high end panasonic that does 24p)

and if you don't run in 24p in order to match something else then why did you get 24p in the first place?

i personally don't rent, 2 reasons, i'm in western massachusetts and its like 80 miles to boston to get to the nearest rental place, the other reason is that its cheaper in the long run. i plan on making a LOT of shorts, documentaries whatever. i use my camera EVERY chance i get.

i even volunteer my time/skills/equipment to help out people in the area who want to do a short, a documentary or even a local woman who goes to smith college, i filmed her masters thesis which was a wonderful dance production.

i just bought my second dvx-100a. i was disappointed because fed-ex had a late plane and it sat for the weekend instead of arriving on saturday so i couldn't shoot her performance with two cameras.

matthew
 
Re: Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

[quote author=matthewd5 link=board=Links;num=1108275721;start=0#3 date=02/13/05 at 20:30:11]

i am sure barry or someone can answer this better than i can but in my opinion you really can't match footage of the dvx in 24p with anything but a dvx-100a (or the high end panasonic that does 24p)

and if you don't run in 24p in order to match something else then why did you get 24p in the first place?

i personally don't rent, 2 reasons, i'm in western massachusetts and its like 80 miles to boston to get to the nearest rental place, the other reason is that its cheaper in the long run. i plan on making a LOT of shorts, documentaries whatever. i use my camera EVERY chance i get.

i even volunteer my time/skills/equipment to help out people in the area who want to do a short, a documentary or even a local woman who goes to smith college, i filmed her masters thesis which was a wonderful dance production.

i just bought my second dvx-100a. i was disappointed because fed-ex had a late plane and it sat for the weekend instead of arriving on saturday so i couldn't shoot her performance with two cameras.

matthew[/quote]

Good points, I think I'll stick with the DVX again, though I'm not familiar with the other Panasonic you are talking about. Do you have a link to it?

Also I hope that one of the pros here can look at what equipment I have now and give me some pointers on anything else that might come in handy in this film project. One thing for sure it will be a learning experience for me, and as this story is one of my least complex, I think it is a good place to start. I've got the screenplay at 55 pages right now and it should be no problem to add a few more scenes and characters plus dialog to get it up to 90, which is what I'm told is real movie length given that most scripts shoot about a minute a page.

David
 
Re: Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

i'd hold off on the additional "HD 17.1 inch flat screen LCD TV" and spend the money on a real production monitor. consumer TV's come "pre programmed" to give the image a bit more punch. so you're not really getting a true image. also they usually don't have an "unsqueeze" feature for 16X9 in the 100a. other features that would be useful are blue only and underscan mode. consumer sets are also usually harder to calibrate. sounds like you've got quite a good arsenal now though and are very motivated.
 
Re: Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

[quote author=Boy link=board=Links;num=1108275721;start=0#5 date=02/15/05 at 17:02:52]i'd hold off on the additional "HD 17.1 inch flat screen LCD TV" and spend the money on a real production monitor. consumer TV's come "pre programmed" to give the image a bit more punch. so you're not really getting a true image. also they usually don't have an "unsqueeze" feature for 16X9 in the 100a. other features that would be useful are blue only and underscan mode. consumer sets are also usually harder to calibrate. sounds like you've got quite a good arsenal now though and are very motivated.[/quote]

Too late, they were down to the last one so I bought it tonight. When I tried out the first camera hooked up to the monitor the picture was very crisp and clear, a lot better than using the eye cup or the flip out screen on the camera, so I think it will work OK for my first effort. I haven't tried it in squeeze mode yet, and from what I've read here you get better results in post if you shoot in letterbox mode anyway, right?

This movie will be a real learning experience for me, and if it is successful I'll look at more pro type equipment next time. (Successful meaning I make some money on it, no easy feat these days.) But I do have a good tale to tell, and I have seen so many DVD movie rentals that are not that good a story and yet they got made, so hopefully a good tale will count for something. I also ordered the other DVX, this time it comes with a $300 rebate from Buydig.com and a another copy of magic bullet plus a FREE copy of The DVX Book + DVD by Barry Green! (Is that the same Barry Green we see here?)

As for motivation, I've been a movie fan almost all my life and this particular story has been playing in my head for two years now after I wrote it. I have to get it down on DVD and see if I have what it takes to follow this through from start to finish. I know the people at work think I'm the only one there who could possibly do something like this, and there are some people there who know quite a bit about the technical side of this project. I'm getting good support at school too, my Prof thinks that getting talent for the front of the camera will be easy, but who knows how good they will be? Well, my job as director is to get the best I can get out of what I have to work with, and I feel confident that I can do that. In the end the story is about ordinary people for the most part that find themselves in unordinary circumstances. Hollywood talent would be nice, but I think this film can be well told with unknown but motivated actors and crew. Over the years I've taken some film classes, now we'll see if I've learned anything, and can continue to learn what I need to, to do this.

By the way, what exactly does the magic bullet software offer that the Adobe suite doesn’t, if anything?

And thanks for the feedback you guys. It sure is nice to have a place to come to and learn from people that are in the business and/or know a lot about what I'm trying to do!

David
 
Re: Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

One more thing. Using a 5.1 setup for mixdown? Are these "home theater" speakers?

If so, you'll be better off getting a set of (2) near field monitors to get the sound right, then just use the 5.1 to get the spatial mix.

Consumer-grade 5.1 setups tend to make the audio sound better than it really is.

Of course, the near field monitors are a good $600 right there...at the low end. ;)

Dan
 
Re: Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

[quote author=GenJerDan link=board=Links;num=1108275721;start=0#7 date=02/16/05 at 05:48:37]One more thing. Using a 5.1 setup for mixdown? Are these "home theater" speakers?

If so, you'll be better off getting a set of (2) near field monitors to get the sound right, then just use the 5.1 to get the spatial mix.

Consumer-grade 5.1 setups tend to make the audio sound better than it really is.

Of course, the near field monitors are a good $600 right there...at the low end. ;)

Dan[/quote]

Thanks Dan, but that is too much for speakers right now. I need to have some cash reserves for those things that always come up on projects like this. I'm using an OK small set of 5.1 Creative speakers on my computer, but I have a great set of Boston Acoustic speakers with a few subs on my main 5.1 surround system on my home entertainment system, and they rock! So after the DVD is made I can play it back on my big 47' HD home entertainment system and see how it sounds there. If it needs work I can go back and remix the sound again.

I know how important speakers are, I used to build them as a paying hobby, but it is too hard to match the components with what the big guys had, so I stopped doing it some years ago.

PS, can I get a date with your avatar? (Assuming she is a she that is ;) )

David
 
Re: Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

[quote author=David_M_Payne link=board=Links;num=1108275721;start=0#8 date=02/16/05 at 11:09:46]PS, can I get a date with your avatar? (Assuming she is a she that is  ;) )
[/quote]

Too late! Bwahahahahahah! As of this past Monday, she's my fiance. ;D

Dan
 
Re: Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

[quote author=GenJerDan link=board=Links;num=1108275721;start=0#9 date=02/16/05 at 13:24:26]

Too late!  Bwahahahahahah!  As of this past Monday, she's my fiance.   ;D

Dan[/quote]

Smart move my man, I'd marry her too just based on her come hither look, and I don't even know her! ;)

David
 
Re: Camera quandary, DVX again, or?

bump because the link dosn't work for some reason?  ???

PS Dan, sorry you felt the need to remove the pic of your girl, it was the best pic on this forum! :(

David
 
After reading all the threads on the Panasonic 16:9 Anamorphic Lens Adapter as well as Barry's book and DVD (which came with my second DVX) and Adam Wilt's observations on his web site, I bought two at EVS tonight. They gave me a bit of a break on the price for two at $729 ea. (Ouch!) As my final goal is to make a DV movie that can be converted to film, it is clear that this is the only way to do it and get quality results. Thanks for all the good advice I've gotten here you guys, this place is priceless for the aspiring DVX moviemaker and DVX users in general!

David
 
I own 2 DVX -100's . Perhaps you could find a used one and then sell it for close to what you bought it for after the shoot ! I can't imagine buying anything but a DVX -100 and or preferably the "A". Besides matching your camera perfectly there is nothing that has a picture near as good !l
 
What about lighting? You haven't mentioned anything about what lights you are going to use. If you want to do this right and make it look good you definitely need to think about the lighting. Both what lights to use, and mostly important, HOW to use it. If you are not familiar with lighting a scene you should definitely get someone who is, involed in your project. After all besides telling a good story, film is all about painting with light, and that's (along with the soundtrack) what sets the mood!
 
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