Camera of choice shooting raw -documentary

Gary Huff said:
The BMC is a bit more of a challenge than shooting, say, the GH2 (whose crop isn't as severe), but I had no issues with that. I think the crop issue is overstated.
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But Gary what lenses are you using on the GH2? 4/3, DSLR or PL's?

At least with micro 4/3rds you can get micro 4/3rds lenses, BMC forces you to use DSLR or PL so once you throw on even a 15mm wide angle lens you're at 30mm which really isn't all that wide for the types of space you might be shooting in.
 
there is a m43 version on its way.....you seem to be banding around expert advice without knowing all the information - and talk of 2x 'crop' factor can be construed as misleading if you're not going to put it in context and mention the 'crop' factor of s35
 
I'm here to discuss, learn and share information just like you.

That's great if BMC plans a 4/3 version, but it is not here today so the contraints, challenges and issues of shooting with it (as already indicated in context) are valid.

Not sure why people are so sensitive and defensive over "crop" or BMC. The fact is you will not get the same DOF as super 35mm. I'll say it again, if that's not a problem for you then great. But let it be known instead of claiming conspiracy theories or bantering as you seem to be putting it.
 
Unfortunately, sometime it's not just all about the camera's features but also about the environment where you're going to be using the cam. I heard than BMC don't like humid environment but I am sure there is a way to work around this.
The reason why we are considering RAW is because we are going to stylize some scenes with a lot of post work. The environment is going to be very dusty, hot and very humid at times. We won't have access to a rental house or repair house for 20 days straight and won't have the budget to get one cam for run-and-gun and one cam for landscapes and indoor interviews.
There are no perfect cams out there since each shoot is different and cinematographer have their own workflow. So, what I am trying to get is impressions from shooters here who have actually experienced shooting for docs for national broadcasters (with an option to get a longer version for theatrical release) within the type of environment and stylistic needs we have, so we could find the best possible compromise. We have to choose one cam.
The cams we've considering so far is the Canon C300, BMC, but may be, as jax_rox suggested, the Sony F5 or ...HD gopro (just kidding for the latter)

Has anyone worked with F5 in a long doc?
 
LyleGorch said:
If I was a little more confident in the workflow I would suggest looking for someone with an Ikonoskop (good luck on that in the U.S.), it is RAW, really compact and opens up the world of 16 and s16 glass.
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I've never heard about this cam. would love to hear more info from shooters who have worked with it.
 
The wildcard here is durability. We know that the C300 can handle rugged conditions and remote areas (https://vimeo.com/52577793) with little trouble. I haven't had my hands on a BMC yet, but from what I've heard it isn't as rugged. You'll also have many more pieces on your rig shooting BMC than you would Canon. You'll also need V-Mount or Anton Bauer batteries for the BMC, as well as a couple of bulky chargers. You can get well over an hour of shooting time out of a 32gb CF card in the C300, whereas the same amount of footage will take upwards of 600gb with the BMC. You might finish your doc with around 2tb of data shooting the C300, whereas you'll be looking at 20-40tb with the BMC. Factor in redundant backups and you'll have to travel with a couple terabytes worth of SSDs and at least 20 external hard drives for the BMC (that's not even counting redundant backups). With the C300 you'll have a couple of little CF card cases and 3-4 external hard drives.

The F5 is really new, and there probably aren't too many people who have spent any serious time with one. The Ikonoskop has a beautiful image, but it's a specialty camera and most of us haven't actually held one.

In my mind mobility and speed are the most important workflow considerations for a doc. Not only will the C300 be incredibly fast and easy to pull out and start shooting with, but the addition of a couple of IS zoom lenses makes it a force to be reckoned with for run and gun shooting. You'll need maybe 4-6 small internal batteries, and everything is nicely contained without a lot of extra stuff bolted to the side of the camera. Another huge bonus is that the lightweight codec will make it simple to review and begin cutting footage on location from any decent laptop. No transcoding necessary.

At the end of the day, BMC will give you a little more to work with on the image side, at the expense of significantly more gear to cart around, much more drive space, and a longer post process. The C300 will let you shoot with many fewer limitations in a smaller, more portable formfactor, and will greatly expedite post. What is more important to your shoot? The absolute last 5% of attainable image quality, or the ability to move and shoot quickly?

The F5 is also a contender for sure, I just don't have any first hand experience, doc setting or otherwise.
 
ade4all said:
there is a m43 version on its way.....you seem to be banding around expert advice without knowing all the information - and talk of 2x 'crop' factor can be construed as misleading if you're not going to put it in context and mention the 'crop' factor of s35
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The BMC crop factor of ~2x is in reference to full frame still, not s35, isn't it? Since the image sensor is almost the same size as a m4/3 image sensor.

flean said:
Unfortunately, sometime it's not just all about the camera's features but also about the environment where you're going to be using the cam. I heard than BMC don't like humid environment but I am sure there is a way to work around this.
The reason why we are considering RAW is because we are going to stylize some scenes with a lot of post work. The environment is going to be very dusty, hot and very humid at times. We won't have access to a rental house or repair house for 20 days straight and won't have the budget to get one cam for run-and-gun and one cam for landscapes and indoor interviews.
There are no perfect cams out there since each shoot is different and cinematographer have their own workflow. So, what I am trying to get is impressions from shooters here who have actually experienced shooting for docs for national broadcasters (with an option to get a longer version for theatrical release) within the type of environment and stylistic needs we have, so we could find the best possible compromise. We have to choose one cam.
The cams we've considering so far is the Canon C300, BMC, but may be, as jax_rox suggested, the Sony F5 or ...HD gopro (just kidding for the latter)

Has anyone worked with F5 in a long doc?
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There is also the C100 with a Ninja2, I would considering it easier to use for run n' gun than the C300, especially with the 1 shot auto-focus, plus its cheaper letting you buy a few really large SSDs to put in the ninja2!

But you also want rugged, it seems. There aren't really any rugged cinema oriented cameras that offer raw. If only the Apertus Axiom existed, it would probably be perfect for you, sans the need to have it connected to a computer, but alas, they are still in the alpha stages.

For $3000, you can get a USB3 camera head that shoots 2k x 2k on a 1" sensor, up to 90fps, raw or really any codec you have on the computer it is attached to, or multiple codecs if the computer can handle it. The Lumenera Lt425, it is an industrial camera so it is "semi-rugged", uses the CMOSIS CMV4000 sensor. I want to test one out.
 
atarijedi said:
The BMC crop factor of ~2x is in reference to full frame still, not s35, isn't it? Since the image sensor is almost the same size as a m4/3 image sensor.
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sorry should have been clearer - yes it is in reference to full frame, I just thought seeing as it seems important to warn folk about what they might not know - that it was worth pointing out that s35 also has a crop factor, of about 1.6 when comparing to full frame

Add the speedbooster to this and the crop factor
becomes fairly irrelevant
 
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Hi Flean, you are correct that the camera features themselves are not the only thing that are important. If I can only suggest you put equal thought towards the actual lens(es) you will use for your run and gun documentary and perhaps even let that help dictate which "camera" you might lean towards.

I mostly shoot cinematic productions where primes work well but I've also shot footage for docs and your greatest asset ever will be one or two decent zoom lenses. It can allow you to get wide angle coverage or zoom in without being obtrusive and without even having to move from your position. For personal interviews zooms are a necessity in that regard, so consider the use of good zoom lenses for your project and if you might want/need features like auto-focus, power zoom, auto-iris, etc..

Regarding the F5 what I can tell you as an F3 owner is the ergonomics of the F5/F55 are much improved for run and gun shoulder mount type of work with its forward viewfinder and compact body. The other good thing is you can shoot with a decent bit-rate for most of your doc and then switch to RAW when you want to shoot those scenes you mentioned that you want to stylize and grade later on. The downside might be the cost however. The F5 is $16,500, recorder is $5300, and the VF is $3500-$5000! That's not even including power and media but I'm not sure what kind of budget you have to work with so maybe its a viable option. Unfortunately the Sony will not auto focus or control the iris of any EF lenses so that's a bit of a bummer.

To me the Canon probably makes the most sense since it is compact and you can use EF lenses, focus with them and adjust iris with them. You can manually zoom no problem. If you decide in advance which scenes you will want to grade then maybe consider a 2nd camera like the BMC for just that purpose. Just know you won't be pulling any wide shots with it that easily unless you bring along an 11mm lens for it.

I hope all these posts have been helpful. Please let us know what you decide to go with in the end and why. I'd be curious to hear as I'm sure with many others.
 
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Hi Dennis,
Thank you for your great post. All the posts have been very helpful. We are still considering all our options for cam. The shoot will be during summer so we have a bit of time to make our decision. Having 2 cams like Canon C300/C100 and BMC is also a consideration. The F5 sounds like a real option also. We'll see how things develop in the world of cams over the next few months and see what our tests will come out.
I'll definitely post about our decision.
 
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