business model for online filmmaking

Fahad said:
never mind. i think i'm way off on this wild goose-chase.

i believe it to be financially impossible. a project like this would require much more money to launch and get any kind of following.

i appreciate the input of everyone here and on the other thread.

i thought i could fight the tide, but the tide's too strong.
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Good to see they finally broke you down, wouldn't want people to try new ideas would we. Just do it man, I can't tell you your idea is going to work, but I CAN tell you that not trying it will 100% of the time get no results. Internet forums, even good ones like this, are not the place to go to get motivated to try something new. Not just in this business but in anything. It's certainly not just the internet though, our whole society seems to have transitioned from "anythings possible if you work hard" to "nothings possible if your parents aren't rich"

All that anyone can ever say is how "impossible" something is. F impossible right in it's stupid A. Ideas NEVER work when you don't try them. But anyway, whatever.
 
Thanks for the words of encouragement, Burritoclcok.

i haven't given up completely, though. it just seems that the consensus is that low production cost and moderate to high success is a pipe dream. it could be true.

it's always argued that viewers have come to expect X which costs at least Y.

the only thing that's nagging me, is that i believe i have seen that it isn't so.

maybe i'm seeing things, maybe i haven't communicated my idea effectively.

i don't mean to be the newbie schmuck who's talking nonsense. i respect this community and all who contribute to it.
 
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Burritoclock said:
Good to see they finally broke you down, wouldn't want people to try new ideas would we.
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He asked for opinions on feasibility not encouraging platitudes or blind optimism.

That most of the responses were empirically minded means he got what he asked for.
 
arroway said:
He asked for opinions on feasibility not encouraging platitudes or blind optimism.

That most of the responses were empirically minded means he got what he asked for.
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it would be nice to see how such a venture might work, rather then dismissing it from the onset. if we investigated further, we could bring out ways in which it might work, then go back and see if it's financially viable. you know, constructive criticism.
 
Sorry to thread jack, but I agree with Burritoclock on this one. For anyone to say that the responses were "empirically minded" would imply that the parties responding have tried it and have observed or experienced complete failure. The absence of success does not presuppose that it could not be successful. But there are universal truths that one has to face in order for any venture to become viable.

First, the good movie thing. What is that? What makes a movie good. If Tarkovsky's Solaris was released right now, today, would it be good? Would people sell it out? People today can't sit through Yojimbo, or Citizen Kane, or The Big Sleep and those are classics. No, today, in this world, good is subjective. The problem with low budget films are that they either try to pander to the LCD, or they try too hard to be high art. I had absolutely no problem watching Manic which was shot with a Sony PD. It was a wonderful film and I'm pretty sure that 35mm film existed when it was made. Let your budget guide the type of story you tell, but it's 2010, technology is helping us produce images that just were not possible before. Let technology aid your story telling.

Where I live in Houston, you can rent an HPX500 for $450 and if you pick it up on Friday after 3pm, the whole weekend counts as one day. Also, there are great guys who run extremely good production companies who would only charge about half of your budget for a 30 min film. There is a wonderful editor here who works with budget productions starting at $20 per hour for a minimum 10 hour block. Also, there are no permits required on city and most public property here. So even legal, no guerrilla, it is possible to get a "stunning" film on a budget. I don't know what it's like where you are, but a little research goes a loooong way. Pay your actors, secure locations, shoot like you are supposed to, engage a targeted audience- boom. Not possible 10 or even 5 years ago. You can get in some great storytelling and visually please the snobs!

Second, I do agree that 30 minutes is a thing, but only in that episodic work seems to work better for the web. We have been experimenting with the anime storytelling structure for our web work. It tested pretty well. 30 well paced minutes becomes either 3 strong 10 minute episodes, or 6 5 minute hits. From what I've seen from guys like Westhavenbrook, or from shows like Perestroika, and the like, episodes work. That would be a great way to keep traffic coming to the site, especially if it is compelling. It doesn't take much to create great action (Modern Warfare-Frozen Crossing was made for about $210 and shouldn't exist for that amount according to the empirically minded), and the strength of your writing skills dictate the quality of your comedy or drama. Once the story is told and the episodes have garnered some attention, then offer the entire film as a "package" (which is what you originally intended), no downloading or embedding until then.
 
Third, 500 bucks is a little unrealistic for a designer, but if you customize a wordpress (There are some fantastic sites built on its platform), or a squarespace, subscribe to lynda.com and learn some stuff, you could do it your self or get someone to help you with the more tedious aspects of the build and pay them a nominal fee for the work- but again, it's 2010, Open Source is everywhere, Web 2.0 is out there, use it! You'd be surprised what you could accomplish if your elbow does the work. If the content is compelling and the design is easy to navigate, and most template builders will customize for a fee, then your getting somewhere.

Lastly, marketing is key. After a couple of years of research, it occurs to me that monetizing the internet is daunting. One has to organize it first. Even the most strategic campaigns seem like killing roaches with a napalm bombing run. A savvy business person would approach the task not with money being the goal, but a logical result of achieving a goal. Social networks are built, do not reinvent that wheel, but no one has figured out how to parlay that into repeatable clicks. It's not a money thing; it's an ingenuity thing. It's a trust thing. How do you build trust in a brand when you're selling to 1's and 0's? The answer may lie in collaboration, which Zak Forsman talked about in a thread here, but when even a little success is seen, collaboration turns the sheet and we end up right back where we started. If we as a community could figure that out...

So, I completely disagree with the notions asserted here. But nothing that I've said is anything new. Honestly, I come to DVXuser because it is an amazing place to learn from experts, but sometimes there are too many experts who are so expert that they have even figured out imagination and determination, and if you haven't proven your pedigree to them they will look down at you as novice. I don't have 20 years of experience in the steady, expansive, and expensive landscape of filmmaking and digital content creation, but I do have 5 years experience in a rapidly changing industry where everyday there is a new way to do a new something. Do it, because I'm doing it, and I'm going to do it because you're doing it, which means it must be able to be done.
 
Well it's true you shouldn't let people hold you back from trying something you believe will work. It's just of course there will be obstacles along the way, and there may be good reasons why a lot of people here caution against this or that. Fimmaking in general is a risky business, and as long as you know that and proceed with intelligence and good planning, you can hopefully minimize that risk.

The key really is great content, though. Whenever you hear someone say how many indie films there are or how many scripts are floating around or how many people do this or that, always remember that there will forever be room for greatness in any industry. It doesn't matter if there are 1 million indie films out there, most of them stink, so if you make a great one with the right elements that appeal to a distributor, the rules / odds need not apply to you.
 
JonathanLB said:
The key really is great content, though. Whenever you hear someone say how many indie films there are or how many scripts are floating around or how many people do this or that, always remember that there will forever be room for greatness in any industry. It doesn't matter if there are 1 million indie films out there, most of them stink, so if you make a great one with the right elements that appeal to a distributor, the rules / odds need not apply to you.
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This is the thing, there are factors mitigating what makes a great film and what sells as a great film. Star factor, market viability, bankable sequel potential, it seems like, to everyone but the filmmakers, that a great story is the last piece of the puzzle. Most are intelligent enough to know good story from bad, but it's in the marketing, in the names, that films are built. There is no reason that Avatar should have made the money it made... it's just Dances with Wolves (or Dances with Smurfs :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)). It was boring, long, and just a couple of other movies warmed over. Worldwide gross- $2,730,840,766.

The Hurt Locker was engaging, wonderfully acted, expertly directed, and had a solid, character driven story- Worldwide gross- $48,610,565

Bring that into our numbers, into our world, and it seems that we need to worry less about what stories impress each other and worry more about what stories (and their ornamentation) impress the people who buy the films (the public, not the distributors) because if your film is good by their standards (and not ours) then it will sell and it doesn't matter what anyone thinks- in fact, you won't have to call anyone in that case because everyone will want a piece of the action.
 
Well I disagree with your assessment of Avatar, and so does virtually everyone else -- it had a loot of Oscar nominations, numerous people like me saw it multiple times, bought the Blu-ray, etc. It was a revolutionary film and will go down as one of the greatest event pictures of all time. It's an astonishing technical achievement on every level, and a lot of fun, too. Is it a truly original, great film? No, it isn't, and you're right it really is a number of other stories basically just retold in a new way. It's not particularly original and it doesn't have especially great dialogue, but it IS very well scripted. The structure is awesome, really keeps the action moving, and I think it's anything but boring. It fills you with a sense of wonder and awe at this world that has been created. It's filmmaking at its best in the sense that it's why most people go to a movie theater -- it has a message, even if an unoriginal one, but mainly it's about the spectacle and the fun.

The Hurt Locker is too close to home for many people. It's recognized as a great film, and is great filmmaking, but it's a touchy subject and not as highly commercial. That doesn't make it any less worthy of a story. Money alone is of course not a good barometer of how good a film is, but there is a certain appeal to some films that is lacking in other, perhaps "better" artistic movies.

A great story is still really important, I mean of course we can all cite examples of really bad movies that still made a lot of money for various reasons (marketing, star power, sequel to a great film / part of a big franchise, etc.), but that doesn't mean you should just overlook the importance of a well told story and a strong screenplay. That's how I got as far as I have to this point -- I wrote a script that the right people loved and those people allowed me to realize my vision in a way far above what I had thought possible with my meager budget. It's something magical watching a lot of people come together to help you make YOUR project, not because of the money they're making on it, but because they believe in it so much that they think it will be a hit and whatever time they give now will pay off later. It's humbling even to have producers who earn fees about equal to your budget work on your movie for just the prospect of it being a hit after it is done, because they believe in it and in you that much.

So to focus on big budget blockbusters that have lousy screenplays but made tons of money doesn't seem particularly useful to us indie filmmakers -- we can't cover up a bad screenplay with $100 million in special effects, star power, and another $100 million in marketing ;) That's a lot of "makeup" to put on an ugly face, haha. But we can write a script that convinces people of our talent and makes things happen we never thought possible. What started as just some words on a page has launched my career and put me where I always dreamed I would be -- a feature film director in the DGA.
 
The reason I used these two examples it the fact that one is an example of a great film and the other is what sells as a great film although you yourself admit that it is an amalgamation of other stories. You would be surprised by how many people enjoyed the spectacle of the film, the brilliance of the technology, the ground it broke, but didn't particularly like the story. IF we are talking great story, there is no way that Avatar should have made the money it made.

Also, I agree with you about story; I wholeheartedly agree, but I don't agree with...
JonathanLB said:
It's filmmaking at its best in the sense that it's why most people go to a movie theater -- it has a message, even if an unoriginal one, but mainly it's about the spectacle and the fun.
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because it assumes that all I need is spectacle, fun, and an unoriginal message and if I present it in an interesting and different way the bodies will hit seats. From what I've read here, this is one of the problems with independent scripts.

It does, however, speak to exactly my point. There are stories that sell to the masses, and there are stories that are sold to the industry. In order for the aforementioned venture to work, a great script that yields a great story that can sell to the masses, whether it be an experience, or spectacle, or message is key rather than a story that can sell to the industry.

That's all I am saying.
 
JonathanLB said:
So to focus on big budget blockbusters that have lousy screenplays but made tons of money doesn't seem particularly useful to us indie filmmakers -- we can't cover up a bad screenplay with $100 million in special effects, star power, and another $100 million in marketing ;) That's a lot of "makeup" to put on an ugly face, haha. But we can write a script that convinces people of our talent and makes things happen we never thought possible. What started as just some words on a page has launched my career and put me where I always dreamed I would be -- a feature film director in the DGA.
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Love the ugly face crack!

But what if you split the difference? What if you take the experience created by blockbusters, and combine it with good storytelling. What if indies focused on creating an experience tied to their stories.

Now, I'm not talking 200 million dollar sfx/vfx.

God help me, if I see one more indie film about junkies/bum/alcoholic's redemption or condemnation (with the exception of The Wrestler), or maudlin, friendless outsiders who are supposed to be brooding and complex, or slutty, self destructive teenagers who use sex as a weapon, or a dysfunctional family, or some warmed over X-files/Serenity/ clone, or any gore porn with a cast of models turned actresses... there is no experience in these films to me.

Imagine an indie film that innovated and took that chances of say... Oldboy. That's what I would love to see. That's an experience. That was a compelling story. What if we thought at that level?
 
haha

haha

Well, I don't think that Avatar is a great, original story, and I agree most people don't really think that. Most people love it for all that it is, but forgive it for what it is not. It's not a highly original, amazing film that changes the way you think about the world. At least, I don't think so. It's pretty basic and the message has been told a lot of times before. But I do think it's great filmmaking nonetheless because it's a ton of fun and it's incredible visually -- movies are a visual medium, so it succeeds on that level beyond expectation.

I don't want to get hung up on examples, so maybe you could pick something else and I would see what you are saying, but I think Oldboy is just about the biggest piece of s*** that I've ever seen in my life. It's completely horrible in every respect. The action is awful, the story is disgusting and lame, the characters are detestable, it's just all around a total pile of diarrhea. I don't think you could make a worse movie if you tried. I know how many people think it's some amazing foreign / indie movie and swear by it, but I watched it and was so disgusted by how awful it was that I gave it to a friend. That is not indie filmmaking at its finest, or any type of filmmaking at its finest, it's just weird foreign crap that needs to stay away from professional moviemaking. Sympathy for Lady Vengeance, on the other hand, was a lot better movie with an actual plot. I'd rather watch Britney Spears in Crossroads than see Oldboy again. I think they could use that movie in place of Chinese water torture.
 
from a realist standpoint, ie my own, avatar was not a very good (terrible, same with all the last 3 star wars films in terms of realism in effects standpoint) film.

however the ticket sales tend to disagree. hype has a lot to do with the bottom line.
 
Yeah and about $3 billion disagrees with you on the prequels -- they were amazing films. The last film is the fan-favorite best Star Wars movie, plenty of critics called it better than "Star Wars" (A New Hope), and it got better reviews on first release than any other film in the saga. They are absolutely incredible films, story-wise, character development, memorable quotes, scenes, action sequences, effects, you name it.

There are very few blockbusters that come out with actually deep plots, so when they do people should appreciate them!
 
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