Boycott SmartFlix!
- Thread starter bbalser
- Start date
Chris Messineo
Veteran
If you look at my earlier post (#18), you'll see with a little more googlin you can get their phone numbers. Perhaps it's time we all give them a call and explain our position?cwebster said:
Chris
Chris Messineo said:
Not a good idea. They seem eager to fight, and a harassment lawsuit could come of it.
David's 100% right on that point. Drop-ins, chance encounters or incursions of any kind won't to anything for the aggrieved party(s).
Let them sort the issue with SmartFlix - everyone else who is looking for a project can lend themselves to finding legal methods to defeat the business model behind it.
e
Let them sort the issue with SmartFlix - everyone else who is looking for a project can lend themselves to finding legal methods to defeat the business model behind it.
e
Barry_Green
Moderator
Here's my business model to defeat 'em: start a voluntary-participation rental business, where any content provider can CHOOSE to participate or not. And for those who do want to participate, we charge a buck less than SF, and give half the proceeds to the content author.
I have no appetite to start yet another corporation, but if I did that's probably the way I'd go about it.
I have no appetite to start yet another corporation, but if I did that's probably the way I'd go about it.
What you'd have to do is to contact each content provider before you buy, tell 'em that this is what's up, and if they don't want in, you don't buy. (Contacting everyone who has material being rented by SF might not be a bad idea. I know plenty of the content providers are pissed about it, and heck, might even donate stock just to stick it to them.)
You'd have to be aggressive about marketing, and explain exactly why you're doing it. (You know -- rent from the GOOD GUYS.) Also, you'd need to be as diversified as SmartFlix.
If I had a choice between renting from people who are going out of their way not to screw the content providers, vs. the "nasty as we wanna be" boys who take quite the opposite approach, I'd rent from the former in a heartbeat.
And if you can convince me you're actually serious about it and that it's going to work, you've got a copy of Volume I.
You'd have to be aggressive about marketing, and explain exactly why you're doing it. (You know -- rent from the GOOD GUYS.) Also, you'd need to be as diversified as SmartFlix.
If I had a choice between renting from people who are going out of their way not to screw the content providers, vs. the "nasty as we wanna be" boys who take quite the opposite approach, I'd rent from the former in a heartbeat.
And if you can convince me you're actually serious about it and that it's going to work, you've got a copy of Volume I.
vidled
DVXuser Sponsor
Barry, an EXCELLENT idea for sure! Steve, the software would have to be fairly WELL automated, as the biggest hurdle/expense (and the guy from SF is right there) is the accounting. This is not to be underestimated, and something Amazon struggled with for a LONG time. It's a LOT easier to rent/sell a few things at a high price, than many things at a low price.
Having said that, we'd certainly like to help start this up. It is a very worthwhile thing to do, considering the current alternative...
Having said that, we'd certainly like to help start this up. It is a very worthwhile thing to do, considering the current alternative...
bbalser
Veteran
I'd be willing to do this, start a site for renting specifically VIDEO production "how-to" videos. Price has to cover shipping, cover time for handling, a cut for admin, a cut for the author. It may be a few bucks more than SmartFlix, but there's nothing wrong with a hugh banner across the top, "WE ONLY RENT VIDEOS WITH AUTHORS PERMISSION, AND WE PROFIT SHARE WITH AUTHORS, UNLIKE SOME OTHER SERVICES!"
VideoEd.com? The ETHICAL video rental sight for video production how-to videos!
I'd do it if authors would contribute. I may know a company already doing a lot of eCommerce in our industry who may agree to just add it to their store.
FANTASTIC IDEA! I'M ALL OVER IT! Anyone interested in being directly involved, PM me.
VideoEd.com? The ETHICAL video rental sight for video production how-to videos!
I'd do it if authors would contribute. I may know a company already doing a lot of eCommerce in our industry who may agree to just add it to their store.
FANTASTIC IDEA! I'M ALL OVER IT! Anyone interested in being directly involved, PM me.
If you can do it for a buck less than SmartFlix -- and they have different pricing for different items -- then it'd be a slam dunk and SF would be out of business.
Who WOULDN'T rent from you instead?
And like I said, a lot of the authors would probably be willing to donate stock, so the up-front costs on the discs would be minimal.
I'd suggest, too, that it be a separate, independent store. Would look better for marketing purposes than being an add-on to an existing store.
Who WOULDN'T rent from you instead?
And like I said, a lot of the authors would probably be willing to donate stock, so the up-front costs on the discs would be minimal.
I'd suggest, too, that it be a separate, independent store. Would look better for marketing purposes than being an add-on to an existing store.
Wow. SmartFlix is a snake of a company. I'm glad there's some real interest in challenging their business model.
Software often comes with a "seal" and if you break the seal you're agreeing to the terms of purchase (e.g, no rental). Seems easy to put a piece of printed tape on one's DVDs that includes this kind of agreement. And most video tutorials are probably sold via websites. A prominent banner on the website stating that such is included in the terms of purchase would also help wouldn't it?
Anyhow, I'm more than happy to send my donation to the Independent Content Creators'Legal Defense Fund!
But perhaps the best tactic is the one you guys are now discussing: a competing business model that shares revenue with the creators of the product. I'd volunteer some time to help set it up.
Software often comes with a "seal" and if you break the seal you're agreeing to the terms of purchase (e.g, no rental). Seems easy to put a piece of printed tape on one's DVDs that includes this kind of agreement. And most video tutorials are probably sold via websites. A prominent banner on the website stating that such is included in the terms of purchase would also help wouldn't it?
Anyhow, I'm more than happy to send my donation to the Independent Content Creators'Legal Defense Fund!
But perhaps the best tactic is the one you guys are now discussing: a competing business model that shares revenue with the creators of the product. I'd volunteer some time to help set it up.
Greggl
Well-known member
Hehe... you guys are making my point...
The cat is out of the bag... the problem is not only with smartflix' licensing,
rentals 'on demand' are going to replace the $250 how-to video sale. The
difference is nickels and dimes between a $9 rental that nets you $4.50 and
the $240 you make from a sale... especially if your sales website is a page
down in the search engines from the $9 rental site that the last few posts
are so much in support of
Yes, you're challenging the smartflix (bad) business model, but the truth is
that even a legit rental site challenges YOUR business model even more.
The cat is out of the bag... the problem is not only with smartflix' licensing,
rentals 'on demand' are going to replace the $250 how-to video sale. The
difference is nickels and dimes between a $9 rental that nets you $4.50 and
the $240 you make from a sale... especially if your sales website is a page
down in the search engines from the $9 rental site that the last few posts
are so much in support of
Yes, you're challenging the smartflix (bad) business model, but the truth is
that even a legit rental site challenges YOUR business model even more.
bbalser
Veteran
Software and DVDs and music CDs are all covered under different copyright laws.
I've taken to two models you fantastic and creative folks have presented here.
1- The First Play notice that rental is not sanctioned my the author.
2- Rent video production How-To videos on a site that has signed permission from the author and shares a cut of the rental fee.
I've already emailed several video production training folks who have videos on SmartFlix.com against their will. A couple actually already have eCommerce sites, are well known, and I'm hoping they may want to simply add this service. Otherwise, I'm looking into setting up a Video Production How-To rental site myself.
My proposal is that each author has a signed agreement on file, and gets a cut of each rental fee. The agreements and fee cut amounts are the same for every author, for every DVD, level playing field across the board.
I think what happened is those of us who do training videos got slapped in the face by THE FUTURE! Time for us to wake up and start taking control of the rental of our stuff!
I'm actually considering, if no one will cooperate to make an ethical rental site, simply adding rental as an alternative to purchasing on my own site.
Look, iTunes charges for music, iTunes has saved the ass of some record companies who were seeing dwindling CD retail sales. Sure, folks are still using stuff like LimeWire to download music and stuff illegally. But iTunes is doing a huge, growing business! They've shown that if you give folks something legally for a reasonable price, they'll pay for it, rather than steal it.
Sure, there are still the handful who illegally download music, but iTunes sales are constantly GROWING! If the majority were fine with stealing, iTunes would be a total flop! But it's not! What does that tell you?
Tells me there's hope for human ethics after all. Tells me the majority want to buy legally, support the musicians so they keep recording more great stuff. And they'll buy it for a reasonable price and like being ethical about it, as opposed to the MUCH easier and faster method of stealing it with LimeWire!
I think how-to video rental is something who's time has come. And I plan to be a very active part of making it ethical for those of us who produce this stuff!
Remember that the loop hole SmartFlix.com is using pertains not just to how-to videos, but your own indie films that you sell on your site! They can purchase and rent YOUR movies really soon! Take control, let's ban together, let's get a site going so we can share in the profits of our efforts!
Do y'all realize how much work and money it takes to produce these how-to videos? Do you think we charge high prices cause we simply can? NO WAY! We charge what we do cause we have to sell a dozen or more to make back the money we spent making it. SmartFlix takes that money away from us. If SmartFlix has their way, you'll see the how-to video market dwindle, as there will be no way to make our money back. The one or two or five copies they buy are only a drop in the bucket of what we need to sell to make it worth while. I bet 99% of their rentals are being copied illegally, and those renters will NEVER pay for the actual thing full price from the author.
I asked SmartFlix to show proof they generate sales for authors, they are unable to.
Us authors and our customers must ban together and take control of this new market in a win/win manner. Authors make their money back, customers who can't afford to buy a video out right can rent, it's all out in the open, on the up-and-up, it COULD be a win/win. Just cause the law says I can do something legally, doesn't make it ethical or right.
I suggest if you've ever purchased of viewed a how-to video production DVD, contact the author, give them your support if you really liked the lessons, and encourage them to ban with other authors to TAKE CONTROL and start an ethical rental service.
I've taken to two models you fantastic and creative folks have presented here.
1- The First Play notice that rental is not sanctioned my the author.
2- Rent video production How-To videos on a site that has signed permission from the author and shares a cut of the rental fee.
I've already emailed several video production training folks who have videos on SmartFlix.com against their will. A couple actually already have eCommerce sites, are well known, and I'm hoping they may want to simply add this service. Otherwise, I'm looking into setting up a Video Production How-To rental site myself.
My proposal is that each author has a signed agreement on file, and gets a cut of each rental fee. The agreements and fee cut amounts are the same for every author, for every DVD, level playing field across the board.
I think what happened is those of us who do training videos got slapped in the face by THE FUTURE! Time for us to wake up and start taking control of the rental of our stuff!
I'm actually considering, if no one will cooperate to make an ethical rental site, simply adding rental as an alternative to purchasing on my own site.
Look, iTunes charges for music, iTunes has saved the ass of some record companies who were seeing dwindling CD retail sales. Sure, folks are still using stuff like LimeWire to download music and stuff illegally. But iTunes is doing a huge, growing business! They've shown that if you give folks something legally for a reasonable price, they'll pay for it, rather than steal it.
Sure, there are still the handful who illegally download music, but iTunes sales are constantly GROWING! If the majority were fine with stealing, iTunes would be a total flop! But it's not! What does that tell you?
Tells me there's hope for human ethics after all. Tells me the majority want to buy legally, support the musicians so they keep recording more great stuff. And they'll buy it for a reasonable price and like being ethical about it, as opposed to the MUCH easier and faster method of stealing it with LimeWire!
I think how-to video rental is something who's time has come. And I plan to be a very active part of making it ethical for those of us who produce this stuff!
Remember that the loop hole SmartFlix.com is using pertains not just to how-to videos, but your own indie films that you sell on your site! They can purchase and rent YOUR movies really soon! Take control, let's ban together, let's get a site going so we can share in the profits of our efforts!
Do y'all realize how much work and money it takes to produce these how-to videos? Do you think we charge high prices cause we simply can? NO WAY! We charge what we do cause we have to sell a dozen or more to make back the money we spent making it. SmartFlix takes that money away from us. If SmartFlix has their way, you'll see the how-to video market dwindle, as there will be no way to make our money back. The one or two or five copies they buy are only a drop in the bucket of what we need to sell to make it worth while. I bet 99% of their rentals are being copied illegally, and those renters will NEVER pay for the actual thing full price from the author.
I asked SmartFlix to show proof they generate sales for authors, they are unable to.
Us authors and our customers must ban together and take control of this new market in a win/win manner. Authors make their money back, customers who can't afford to buy a video out right can rent, it's all out in the open, on the up-and-up, it COULD be a win/win. Just cause the law says I can do something legally, doesn't make it ethical or right.
I suggest if you've ever purchased of viewed a how-to video production DVD, contact the author, give them your support if you really liked the lessons, and encourage them to ban with other authors to TAKE CONTROL and start an ethical rental service.
bbalser
Veteran
Greggl said:
You're very flawed here. A video that sells for $240 is NOT making the author $240 profit. The profit we make off each video is very small. It takes a LOT of money and time to produce these. The profit margin is not nearly as huge as you make it out to be. $4.50 off a rental would be nice, and may be more than we make off a sale.
Greggl said:Hehe... you guys are making my point...
The cat is out of the bag... the problem is not only with smartflix' licensing,
rentals 'on demand' are going to replace the $250 how-to video sale. The
difference is nickels and dimes between a $9 rental that nets you $4.50 and
the $240 you make from a sale... especially if your sales website is a page
down in the search engines from the $9 rental site that the last few posts
are so much in support of
Yes, you're challenging the smartflix (bad) business model, but the truth is
that even a legit rental site challenges YOUR business model even more.
No, you're missing the point.
If we as content providers were going to take on SmartFlix, because they've got us riled enough to do it . . .
What costs more -- renting the stuff out ourselves, or legal fees?
And beating them in the marketplace is eminently more satisfying than any court order could be.
It's not all about profit motive.
Greggl,
You keep going back to the $240 statements - inferring that the people who create multiple disc titles are gouging their customers. In not one post has anyone stated that there shouldn't be a rental model to make it possible for people to rent a portion of a series or an entire series for a fraction of what it would cost to own the same material.
The product finds its own level in the market - if 5,000 copies have been pressed (or worse, burned), and they're not moving at the original retail price, then the distributor will lower the price until it is at the place the market can bear.
Titles like Barry Green's HVX Bootcamp don't sell for $240 or $150. Most single or two-disc instructionals are priced higher than studio mass releases because the cost to produce the material is offset with a much lower distribution.
The projection of number of units purchased figures into the pricepoint - it has to in order to assure fiscal sense. A $15k production and 1500 disc press has a different pricepoint than a studio feature that plays in myriad ancillary markets just prior to or concurrent to its home video release. Today's studio feature (and television episodics) budgets are amortized over these various segments - with no one area having to actually carry the burden of the production and P&A costs.
The independently produced instructional works in a much more limited way, with a fraction of the distribution potential. Still, the physical production, manufacturing and distribution costs are real and there is little if any up-front money to offset them.
I think you're being unfair in your judgement of this segment. Certainly, they could afford to be more creative in the way they distribute. Still, as David J. indicated, many don't want to be in the business of distribution at all. They're creators. Like most directors, producers and procos, they rely on distribution channels over which they have little control - aside from the deal they strike on paper. That's what is missing here.
Anyway, until you've been in their shoes (as financiers and creators), or can speak with authority from a distributor's viewpoint, you should temper your remarks.
e
You keep going back to the $240 statements - inferring that the people who create multiple disc titles are gouging their customers. In not one post has anyone stated that there shouldn't be a rental model to make it possible for people to rent a portion of a series or an entire series for a fraction of what it would cost to own the same material.
The product finds its own level in the market - if 5,000 copies have been pressed (or worse, burned), and they're not moving at the original retail price, then the distributor will lower the price until it is at the place the market can bear.
Titles like Barry Green's HVX Bootcamp don't sell for $240 or $150. Most single or two-disc instructionals are priced higher than studio mass releases because the cost to produce the material is offset with a much lower distribution.
The projection of number of units purchased figures into the pricepoint - it has to in order to assure fiscal sense. A $15k production and 1500 disc press has a different pricepoint than a studio feature that plays in myriad ancillary markets just prior to or concurrent to its home video release. Today's studio feature (and television episodics) budgets are amortized over these various segments - with no one area having to actually carry the burden of the production and P&A costs.
The independently produced instructional works in a much more limited way, with a fraction of the distribution potential. Still, the physical production, manufacturing and distribution costs are real and there is little if any up-front money to offset them.
I think you're being unfair in your judgement of this segment. Certainly, they could afford to be more creative in the way they distribute. Still, as David J. indicated, many don't want to be in the business of distribution at all. They're creators. Like most directors, producers and procos, they rely on distribution channels over which they have little control - aside from the deal they strike on paper. That's what is missing here.
Anyway, until you've been in their shoes (as financiers and creators), or can speak with authority from a distributor's viewpoint, you should temper your remarks.
e
Greggl
Well-known member
You're making the assumption that I'm not involved here. I have a stake
a number of specialty videos, most of them loss prevention related from
when my entire income was based on industrial video and the specialty
market.
The point here is that the rental and on-demand access to media is the
inevitable future. The $240 titles are the perfect template for discussion
because its the premium, multi-disc titles that are going face the largest
challenge to their production models. A premium title, targeted toward
a niche market, doesn't automatically increase its saleability (rental
potential in this case), but its return per unit has gone through the
floor if 70% of returns are now in the form of a sub-$10 license fee
rather than a substantial return on a sale. Heck, I'm still stinging from
the secondary ebay resale market! I don't see a return on those
'sales' as exsiting product is resold, but its a factor that didn't exist 10
years ago. This is the next challenge... but its also an opportunity.
a number of specialty videos, most of them loss prevention related from
when my entire income was based on industrial video and the specialty
market.
The point here is that the rental and on-demand access to media is the
inevitable future. The $240 titles are the perfect template for discussion
because its the premium, multi-disc titles that are going face the largest
challenge to their production models. A premium title, targeted toward
a niche market, doesn't automatically increase its saleability (rental
potential in this case), but its return per unit has gone through the
floor if 70% of returns are now in the form of a sub-$10 license fee
rather than a substantial return on a sale. Heck, I'm still stinging from
the secondary ebay resale market! I don't see a return on those
'sales' as exsiting product is resold, but its a factor that didn't exist 10
years ago. This is the next challenge... but its also an opportunity.
bbalser
Veteran
Greggl, name the title and author of this $250 video you're refering to that makes "substantial return". This is what I do day in and day out for a living, not just my own, but for industries all over the country. I've yet to see one have a "substantial return" on each sale. I'm VERY interested to see the specific data you're basing your claims on.
And the statement, "...but the truth is that even a legit rental site challenges YOUR business model even more." is just absurd. Explain how this is so, it makes no sense to me.
I'd also like to point out a cost most customers are unaware of. TIME!
I produce for clients, I have to have time to keep up on my trainer certifications, and preps for my classes. When I do a how-to video, that takes time away from much more higher profit work. I have to "make time" to produce how-to videos. I don't get paid for that time, it's all free. When I price, I price to make up my physical monitary costs.
To echo what's already been said, and is a FACT, it takes way more time and money up front to produce these than I think most people are aware of.
Let me just make up some numbers: If I make $10 off each DVD sale, I'd only have to sell 30 units just to pay for JUST the labels on the back of the case only! Another 30 to pay for duplications! And only another 30 to pay for the lables on the front of the cases! And 30 just to pay for the cases themselves! There's 120 units I'd have to sell to break even.
If you think we sell 120 units in a year, you're very sadly mistaken. I wish I sold that many in a year's time. If my clients could sell like that, I'd be making more in production of these things! It just doesn't happen PEROID. I do this for a living EVERY DAY!
If SmartFlix.com picks up my videos, and I'm sure they will any day now, I'm out of business, period. Anyone here care to tell me they don't give a ratsass if I make tutorials or not? And if I can't sell any, I'm sure as hell not wasting my time doing the freebies! I'll keep it all in my classes where I actually can make a living to pay my bills.
So, you want us authors to keep making tutorials? Or you want to see us all give up cause we're losing money?
And the statement, "...but the truth is that even a legit rental site challenges YOUR business model even more." is just absurd. Explain how this is so, it makes no sense to me.
I'd also like to point out a cost most customers are unaware of. TIME!
I produce for clients, I have to have time to keep up on my trainer certifications, and preps for my classes. When I do a how-to video, that takes time away from much more higher profit work. I have to "make time" to produce how-to videos. I don't get paid for that time, it's all free. When I price, I price to make up my physical monitary costs.
To echo what's already been said, and is a FACT, it takes way more time and money up front to produce these than I think most people are aware of.
Let me just make up some numbers: If I make $10 off each DVD sale, I'd only have to sell 30 units just to pay for JUST the labels on the back of the case only! Another 30 to pay for duplications! And only another 30 to pay for the lables on the front of the cases! And 30 just to pay for the cases themselves! There's 120 units I'd have to sell to break even.
If you think we sell 120 units in a year, you're very sadly mistaken. I wish I sold that many in a year's time. If my clients could sell like that, I'd be making more in production of these things! It just doesn't happen PEROID. I do this for a living EVERY DAY!
If SmartFlix.com picks up my videos, and I'm sure they will any day now, I'm out of business, period. Anyone here care to tell me they don't give a ratsass if I make tutorials or not? And if I can't sell any, I'm sure as hell not wasting my time doing the freebies! I'll keep it all in my classes where I actually can make a living to pay my bills.
So, you want us authors to keep making tutorials? Or you want to see us all give up cause we're losing money?
Last edited:
Greggl
Well-known member
BenB... so if there is a 'legit' rental site where you make $4 on a rental after this site purchases 1-2 copies and rents them out FULL time with mailing turnaround of one
week, you still aren't going to pay for those labels. You end up losing money in a
different fashion.
I don't need a 101 in this.. been doing it for years. The 'mailed' rental market,
legit or otherwise, of niche video is going to be a challenge. Its different that
getting a title into the catalog of a traditional video store distributor... each
shop would need to purchase copies for inventory.. now that inventory is MUCH
less, with nationwide exposure.
week, you still aren't going to pay for those labels. You end up losing money in a
different fashion.
I don't need a 101 in this.. been doing it for years. The 'mailed' rental market,
legit or otherwise, of niche video is going to be a challenge. Its different that
getting a title into the catalog of a traditional video store distributor... each
shop would need to purchase copies for inventory.. now that inventory is MUCH
less, with nationwide exposure.
BenB said:
A couple of things here which I do think are critical.
1) This should NOT be an arm of some other company, particularly not a content provider.
People will respond better to it if it's an independent enterprise. If it's seen as just a marketing arm, it won't catch on as well.
Content providers will be far more willing to putting their products up for rent if they're not being rented out by a competitor.
2) It should not be limited to only video production how-tos. You would not be able to get the same volume as SF if you limit it to that.