Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

S

steve

Member
I'm shooting a film which takesd place in a well sound-proofed Control room studio and an adjacent VO Booth with a glass window. A total of 6 actors, 4 of which have dialog within the same scene.

Assuming I shoot double system, I have a couple questions:

First: Has anyone attempted to cover four actors with a single boom op before? What about 2 boom ops? If I use two, will there be phasing or other 'delay' issues? What does everyone think of booms vs radio lavs in general when covering 4 actors? I've been told that quality film work is generally recorded no more than about 3 feet from subject. Is that true?

Regarding the recordings, is there mixer/digital recorder combo that can handle 4 or more inputs that I could rent relatively cheaply?

Steve
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

Well optimially you would want both shotguns and wireless for a feature production. I have covered 4 actors on one shotgun before but it was very tricky and I wouldn't recommend (a lot depends on dialog, lighting, and camera angle). If you are in a well soundproofed room you can use hypercardiod or even cardiod mic which will help in covering all the actors. Covering with 2 booms with each on it's on channel will not cause phase cancellation (you will need to play with mix in post).

If you got all 4 actors in a wide shot all with dialog and no cuts, 4 wireless probably only way to go (again each situation is unique). A boom mic generally sounds better and more natural than wireless but sometimes you just have to go wireless. Make sure you get plenty of room tone to mix with the wireless.

I wouldn't recommend less than 2 feet from actor's mouth with a boom mic(mic quality and type will effect how far you can get and still sound good).

A good 4 channel mixer is the SD 442. BTW, mixing 4 wireless down to 2 channels can be tricky (especially if you got 2 actors with overlapping dialog).

Good luck, let us know how it goes.
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

Thank you! The booms are proabably out because of the tight space. Do you have more info on th "SD 422" mixer? I looked for it - what's the Brand? Is it a recorder as well?
thanks again - Steve
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

Sorry, Sound Devices 442. Here is link at B&H

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=292985&is=REG

It is just a mixer.

Sound Devices is making an a (probably) awesome recorder, the 744t, that just came out so you probably can't rent too easily.

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/7.htm

The 744t handles 4 inputs but has only 2 micpre.

The Fostex FR-2 is a pretty nice (and cheap) recorder. It is a 2 channel but with the Sound Devices mixer you could handle 4 wireless.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=314091&is=REG

My experience is with ENG/EFP equipment. If this is all studio work, someone else might recommend recorder equipment that is easier and cheaper to use in a controlled studio environment (laptop input for example).
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

Thanks. Ill check this stuff out.

I know your experience is mainly ENG but do you happen to know what most Features use when recording multiple actors like this, in semi-confined interiors? I have used radios before and was really happy not to have that 'hollow room' quality so typical of Boom mics - the radios gave me a very intimate quality. The down side was a certain lack of 'spacial distance' when showing someone speaking from across the room, something I had to work hard at reproducing in my mix.

Anyway, some features seem to have that hollow room audio and some don't - I guess it's more of a deliberate aesthetic choice versus budgetary or technical limitation?

Steve
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

"...do you happen to know what most Features use when recording multiple actors like this, in semi-confined interiors?"

I'm not an authority on this, but I would guess they use both; i.e., wired lav on each actor, and an overhead boom mic in as close as possible (especially in small, 'semi-confined interior' spaces that may also have reverberation (echo) issues. If you record each actor to a seperate channel, you can mix in some of the room tone recorded from the boom mic's channel with the same channel recored from the lav on each actor.

"I have used radios before and was really happy not to have that 'hollow room' quality so typical of Boom mics - the radios gave me a very intimate quality."

This is because the very close-mounted lav mics record almost no room tone or other sound emanating from the environment. It may also be that when you recorded with a boom mike, you had the mic too far from the actor's. By using both a lav (on each actor) and an overhead boom, you can then mix a portion on the boom mic's track with a portion of the lav mic's track, as per your judgement, to get the best of both qualities. This also gives you a backup master track (from the boom mic) of each scene.


"The down side was a certain lack of 'spacial distance' when showing someone speaking from across the room, something I had to work hard at reproducing in my mix."

See above. (mix portions of boom w/lav tracks)
 
"Anyway, some features seem to have that hollow room audio and some don't - I guess it's more of a deliberate aesthetic choice versus budgetary or technical limitation? "

BTW, you might want to check out the new Edirol R-4 (Roland) hard disk recorder. I played with it at the DV Expo in LA last month and it looks very good, and sounds even better. $1500 from B&H Photo, 4-channel hard disk recorder (with compact flash support too), phantom power on banks of 2-tracks, and some built-in EQ filters & effects that may be useful.

Here's a link:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=356881&is=REG
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

Edirols 4-track looks fantastic but won't be available for a couple of months. Anything else out there that can record 4 channels (with pre's on all 4)?

I was thinking of also re-posting to inquire about direct-to-laptop solutions. Do you have any thoughts on such a process?
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

there is alwais be better use boom ( good one ) mounted mike then the lavs , good boom operator can do the job , for critical situation if you know the shooting before -you can plant mikes and wire part of the people .
usially if you dont use mullticam shot you will finish all the dialog from the boom sours with small exeptions on the wide

my best tool in work is my booman ( the last feuter i did he didnt undestood aword since he doesnt speek russian and i made for him fonnetic transcription
only twice in hall moovie he didnt come to the right line becouse the acter improvise)
if you would hire the right people for the job - you probably finish with out adr - if you takeidiot and good equip you still would get shity dialog
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

Edirols 4-track looks fantastic but won't be available for a couple of months. Anything else out there that can record 4 channels (with pre's on all 4)?

I was thinking of also re-posting to inquire about direct-to-laptop solutions. Do you have any thoughts on such a process?
Click to expand...

If you need a shot will all the actors speaking, just borrow or rent a small mackie and a couple of senn 64s or wired lavs. save some money
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

I deal with sound for features and television every day, and here is what I know:

Most people typically DON'T boom and use wireless at the same time. If sound mixers are throwing wireless on somebody, it's usually because the scene can't be boomed. If the scene can be boomed, there is no need to waste time putting wireless on people. I've spent a lot of time on a lot of big budget stuff, and I can tell you most actors, even the big name ones do not like getting wired up with a lav. So, even they will ***** to the sound guy to boom the scene. If you have a scene with 4 people talking, some of which are overlapping, you will need a really good boom operator, which are few and far between, and probably out of your price range. So, you will probably have to end up using wireless.

In the feature and television world, Zaxcom's Deva IV and V are the most popular recorders right now. They are multitrack hard disk recorders that mirror to DVD. The DVD is what you send into post production. The Deva IV is 8 tracks, and the Deva V is 10 tracks. Check out www.coffeysound.com and www.zaxcom.com for info.

Typically, what people do in a situation like this is keep each person on their own individual track, and then make a mono mix and put that on another track on the recorder. So, lets say you are using a Deva IV...you can actually plug directly into the machine without having to use a mixer. It has 8 xlr inputs that are switchable between mic and line level. The new Devas have an internal routing matrix, so you can route any input to any record track, so if you have 4 lavs open, you put them on tracks one through four, and then make track 5 your mono mix track.

The Deva records to the internal hard drive. It also has an internal dvd burner. While the deva is recording to the hard drive, it is mirroring to the internal dvd burner, so at the end of the day, you are done. You turn in the dvd to post production, and they deal with it from there.

So.....it sounds like you may be using wireless for this, because booming a scene with 4 people, with overlapping dialogue can get really hairy.

-Dave
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

The DEVA sells for what, around $10,000?

Dave, when using 4 to 6 lavs into a DEVA does the noise level of each mic start to add up to a pretty loud noise floor?

Seems to me that since this is in a sound booth that booming with hyper would be quite easy. Perhaps not so in an office or other noisy environment but a sound booth?
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

Steve- "Edirols 4-track looks fantastic but won't be available for a couple of months. Anything else out there that can record 4 channels (with pre's on all 4)?"
 
Here are the choices that I'm aware of (with pre's on all 4):

1. Edirol R-4 (not available until mid-Feb, ~ $1500)
2. Zaxcom Deva (several models, ~ $5 to $12k)
3. Zaxcom Fusion (also not yet available, starts @ $5k)
4. HHB Portadrive (~ $10k)
5. Many choices geared to Sound Engineers/musicians, usually record to CD-R (Yamaha 01x; Roland VS200CD; Tascam Portastudio line; etc.)
6. Sound Devices 744t doesn't quite make it as it has only 2 mic pre's built-in, even though it's a 4 track recorder (~ $3800)

"I was thinking of also re-posting to inquire about direct-to-laptop solutions. Do you have any thoughts on such a process?"

For interior shooting locations, it's OK, but exterior locations are too problematic to make it worthwhile to configure such a system. I can't think of any reason to even try this, since it would be more expensive when adding the combined cost of the hardware/software/and logistical issues...

Jay Rose suggests (page 121 in his "Producing Great Sound for DV" book) to record talent to both a lav and overhead boom, then mix the two together... amount depends on how much ambient sound you require versus how clean the dialog should be.

I prefer to think of "Radio Lavs" as -cable eliminators- since the choice of mic includes more than just lavs, and also because it's really just a 'radio link'... they do nothing other than eliminate the cable (assuming you're using a good-quality set).

The sound quality you end up with is still determined (mostly) by:

1. talent of your sound recordist/engineer
2. mic choice
3. mic placement
4. Actors talent! (are they trained pro's, with good voices, enunciation, projection, consistency, etc.)
5. environment
6. quality of gear

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Kevin Schumacher
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

when you mix them to the mono final track the noise flor would be as low as one mike exept the overlap situation - the deva or any other recorder do not do any majic exept to rec each track separetly and if you like to mix it in the same way you was doing on your mixer , so for on the fly mix the analog stage of the recorder and your knowleg of dialog and the fast hand on the fader is what you need to bring the right product


and yes to all who sudgest the wierless - the best would come from the boom , the rest from the lav
lo w budget , no budget - if you wont good dialog bring the person -the iiron junk ( what mike , brand ) is alwais in the second plan
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

[quote author=xort link=board=audio;num=1104880669;start=0#11 date=01/07/05 at 13:40:32]The DEVA sells for what, around $10,000?

Dave, when using 4 to 6 lavs into a DEVA does the noise level of each mic start to add up to a pretty loud noise floor?

Seems to me that since this is in a sound booth that booming with hyper would be quite easy. Perhaps not so in an office or other noisy environment but a sound booth?[/quote]


Depends on what kind of wireless you use. Good stuff like lectro 411's are really quiet, so that's a non-issue. Deva's are relatively expensive to buy, but you can rent them.

The type of shots, number of cameras, ceiling height, room size, and script will determine if booming this will be easy or not.

-Dave
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

The problem with pro gear is that you need a pro to use it and if this guy was a pro or trying to avoid a nice expense in equip and sen-say, he won't be asking this there.

So, what you're trying to do is difficult, you can experiment till you find something that works or hire someone.
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

even this guy is doing al ow budget gig - he is a pro , why? he do his homework befor and planning the best and afortable way to shoot .
and for someone who probably come in the and to hire half pro or person who might be the best tool for him with less expirience then regullar ,
pro gear like deva for that kind of situation when you need real time run multiply mikes .( i dont really know his shooting list and the dyalog and lighting /camera setup) the deva or simillar is the best insurance to get as much as possible usiful stuff ,
the pro gear is not complicated more then the menu on my tv set - you just need be preper .read the manuals /twice / make few tests , find your week side ,ask all the nessery qwestions - that what i call to be a pro .
sorry i know" pros " who skip on few steps tryed to make it in less relible eqiup or didnt open the book and eventually ****ed the product - ican call them amatures asshols .
like my grand mother sad all her life - we are to poor to buy cheap shoos
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

I said -- difficult situation require experimentation or the assistance of a pro. experimentation might take hours, days, a pro will have the solution right there.

A pro is someone who knows his/her job, has done it many time, can handle any situation, has seen most problems that can occur on a set and know how to avoid them or fix them. Someone who takes the job seriously and has credentials.

If you believe that reading a manual... twice will making you a pro? that's a major diss for people that make a living doing this... I wonder about your creds, its very short sighted.
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

Oleg's done everything and been doing production sound for over 20 years... sometimes phrases don't come out just right, but the knowledge is there. I think he's just trying to view this poster from a practical standpoint and be supportive.

I'm guessing the shoot is in the studio and you don't want any mics visible? If you give a little more background on what this shoot actually is that may help. I'm just trying to picture a shoot in a soundproof studio setting where having visible mics would be a problem. Most studios I've seen aren't very big, so it would be obvious to everybody that you're already IN a studio, so visible mics may be expected anyway... but if the story didn't fit that scenario, I'd suggest a good boom op as others have said. Chances are that a good boom op will also have all the equipment you need... maybe even a hypercardioid with a perfect pattern so any speaker in the room sounds "on-axis".

Basically what I'm saying is that I think a good boom op with a Schoeps mk41 could make it sound like everybody was properly boomed... as long as they're all within the swing of the pole.
 
Re: Boom Mic Vs. Radio Lavs ??

No one knows where the talent is place their distance. the acoustics, etc .. all you can do is give possible erroneous advice. There exceptional individuals and certainly this does not apply to everyone but most productions where inexperience individuals take on duties they don't fully grasp, end up getting canned or rejected, that's a fact. I have a perfect example, friend, did a video for MTV (wu-tang) got exposure but it as done totally in aftereffects and other software. He decides to make a movie, raises about 40K-50K, spends much on gear. Uses friends to do lights and audio. Loses two weeks because audio was unusable. Right, the film still has issues with bad lighting, but the film has a good story, good talent. He did get a soundguy for $200/day so that was fixed. Done using a dvx100 too.

good boom op
Click to expand...
there you go
 
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