Bolex D16: RAW, 16/Super 16 sensor size, costs less than MkIII

Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
yeah, hahaha, nothing here. My point exactly. This thread is raised for every sneeze that comes out of D16 HQ. Waiting for something substantial.... like maybe a camera? This thread has been a camera limbo for quite some time, might as well have a good conversation about something... :)
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Some more sneezes::Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) Latest from Joe since NAB

"We have images that come all the way through the pipe, can be seen on the built in monitor, HDMI, SD video outs, and recorded as CDNG files that open in our software and RPP(they don't open with photoshop for some reason, but I'm sure we'll figure it out).
The sensor itself is quite a lot of work to tune though, and there is some amount of interpretation that has to be done. It's basically like trying to tune a grand piano using a system of 10,000 little switches instead of a piano tuning tool.
I will definitely put a blog post together about it. I actually spent a good deal of my time at NAB talking to people who have worked with Kodak sensors before about their experience and trying to build relationships with them. Someone who has done this before and come to a good result would be able to help us immensely at this point.
It seem that all of the hardware is working properly though, that is the good news. It is still possible that we find we need to add a tweak to the FPGA board or something like that, which would add a couple weeks to our time frame, but if not we should have something really soon to show everyone. Again we believe the hardware is all done, but till the tweaking is perfect it is very hard to know for sure, as none of the other cameras have exactly the same hardware we do.
We hope that we will get images out of the current hardware that we are happy with, and we very much think this will happen. However if we do have to make hardware tweaks it will add time. Again we have followed all of the Kodak reference materials and are really thinking this won't be necessary. Hopefully we have a finished hardware system right now, all we have to do is write the firmware to make it work properly. If this is true we are very close to delivery. "

http://www.digitalbolex.com/hotrod-pl-mount-closer-look/

http://www.digitalbolex.com/kish-lenses-daylight-test/

The Kish lens shots are from a GH2 16:9 frame with the S16 size frame superimposed.
 
Razz16mm said:
We hope that we will get images out of the current hardware that we are happy with, and we very much think this will happen. However if we do have to make hardware tweaks it will add time. Again we have followed all of the Kodak reference materials and are really thinking this won't be necessary. Hopefully we have a finished hardware system right now, all we have to do is write the firmware to make it work properly. If this is true we are very close to delivery. "
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Nicely hedged statement.

http://www.digitalbolex.com/hotrod-pl-mount-closer-look/
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http://www.digitalbolex.com/kish-lenses-daylight-test/

The Kish lens shots are from a GH2 16:9 frame with the S16 size frame superimposed.
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Funny...links blocked by Adhaus as spam from my current location.
 
Gary Huff said:
Nicely hedged statement.



Funny...links blocked by Adhaus as spam from my current location.
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Not spam.

The first link is HotRod's PL mount, which is very appealing, however I'd likely choose classic C-mount lenses over PL even though I own quite a nice collection of PL glass. As of now the lens support goes to a baseplate which makes the use choose between the trigger or a propper base plate, which is a downer but not by much because let's be honest, if you are using heavy PL glass on the D16, you're not really gonna want to use the pistol grip, will you? The RedEpic side handle is a pain in the arse with a heavy lens on, so I can't imagine this would be any better.

The second link is testing those Kish lenses at Pershing Square. I'm pretty sure somewhere on DVXuser, there is a long and passionate diatribe of negativity I've stated toward those lenses and the idea behind them, so I'll spare everyone from it again. None-the-less, the test was done on a m4/3 camera not a prototype of their camera. They had to focus the lens by slightly unscrewing it from the mount.
 
Gary Huff said:
Wow.
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Well that is how it works, in general. The lenses cannot focus internally nor can they have their aperture changed. The D16 people are building a mount that can change flange distance to control focus. By moving the lens forward and back from the sensor, you can 'pull' focus to the subject. They didn't have this mount (for the test with the m4/3 camera), so it is stated they unscrewed the lens a little to achieve focus. Don't go too macro, or your lens will fall off! haha.
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
Not spam.

The first link is HotRod's PL mount, which is very appealing, however I'd likely choose classic C-mount lenses over PL even though I own quite a nice collection of PL glass. As of now the lens support goes to a baseplate which makes the use choose between the trigger or a propper base plate, which is a downer but not by much because let's be honest, if you are using heavy PL glass on the D16, you're not really gonna want to use the pistol grip, will you? The RedEpic side handle is a pain in the arse with a heavy lens on, so I can't imagine this would be any better.

The second link is testing those Kish lenses at Pershing Square. I'm pretty sure somewhere on DVXuser, there is a long and passionate diatribe of negativity I've stated toward those lenses and the idea behind them, so I'll spare everyone from it again. None-the-less, the test was done on a m4/3 camera not a prototype of their camera. They had to focus the lens by slightly unscrewing it from the mount.
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I bought a couple of 16mm film C-mount lenses from a GH1 owner and they came with the shims he installed to correct back focus issues too.
 
Gary Huff said:
Well, considering these are the same people who think having you offload footage twice in a row (SSD to CF, CF to HD) is a good idea, I guess this just follows along.
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You can offload the SSD directly via USB3 too. The CF cards provide on camera backup for your footage in a proven reliable removable media format. What's wrong with that? Considering how many problems BMCC shooters are experiencing with off the shelf SSD's, even the ones certified by BM, this seems like a superior solution to me. SSD's were not designed to be removable media for video recording, which is why most camera manufacturers make their own proprietary media solutions for high end systems and use CF or SD for low end.
 
Taking the time and effort to make the camera the best it can be is not trying to do too much. Working with specialist partners to build different components of the camera system that they can do better and more efficiently than you can do yourself is just smart management.
 
I agree taking the time to do it well is not doing too much...all the other things clearly have been, otherwise there would be a camera out by now. Period.

And to be clear, here is what I am saying....
Rather than run around at festivals, seek out lens partners, seek out software partners, seek out expensive mount designers....they could have INSTEAD sought out experienced people with Kodak CCD sensor calibration and CAMERA expertise...as Joe himself said they could really use atm. It is an on the job lesson for them and for others. They put many carts before the horse in my honest opinion, not saying they won't get it worked out.
 
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pulpfiction007 said:
I agree taking the time to do it well is not doing too much...all the other things clearly have been, otherwise there would be a camera out by now. Period.

And to be clear, here is what I am saying....
Rather than run around at festivals, seek out lens partners, seek out software partners, seek out expensive mount designers....they could have INSTEAD sought out experienced people with Kodak CCD sensor calibration and CAMERA expertise...as Joe himself said they could really use atm. It is an on the job lesson for them and for others. They put many carts before the horse in my honest opinion, not saying they won't get it worked out.
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What makes you think he hasn't sought out and hired experienced people as he needed them? He and Ienso have added the specialists they needed at each stage of the process. Mechanical engineers, FPGA programmers, circuit board engineers, project engineering manager, etc. The camera is only now at the functional stage where a sensor calibration specialist would be of any use at all. You can't calibrate a camera that isn't producing an image.

The Kodak sensors are by reputation difficult to calibrate, but when done right they produce gorgeous images with a unique look. Think Leica M series.
Ikonoskop is still trying to get it right 3 years after release. With every firmware update they have made significant improvements.
 
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Those lenses are the most proprietary they could possibly be without being proprietary. Almost completely useless on any other modern camera, in my opinion, if not already considerably handicapping on a D16. So we need that camera! haha

Again, to clarify, I'm still rooting for this camera. I hope we see it come to market soon. I like the idea behind it. I really do.
 
pulpfiction007 said:
Ummm....they needed it well over a month ago, and they don't have one. They have some lenses though ;)
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They had the lenses 4 months ago. None of the other development efforts, software, lens mounts, lenses, have impacted the camera schedule at all. The camera itself is in Ienso's hands as far as all engineering and development to bring it to production. That is all they are working on. When they need more man power or different skill sets they go out and hire somebody.
 
Sorry, I don't buy it. There is a post on their forum from January "talking about the finer points of sensor calibration"....then another in early February saying that they were getting and image and just had to "tweak" it....
EVERYTHING has thrown off their camera schedule...they've missed 3 projected release dates. You can call it what you will, but the facts are the facts.
 
I like the concept behind the DB16. The only question is, how much of a market will be left after BMD can produce its three cameras in quantity? Sure, many might prefer the form factor, design philosophy, CCD image, ergonomics, etc., of the DB16, but how long will people be able to wait, and how many will be able to afford multiple cameras, even in the sub-$5K market? DB's product line isn't as diversified, mature, or popular as BMD's. And there's no telling whether some other company has stealthily developed a digital cinema camera that it will shortly announce then quickly ship (I'm looking at you, GoPro). As noted elsewhere, DB has probably burned through its Kickstarter funds and a whole lot of additional cash. DB has to produce something like a hundred units just to fulfill its Kickstarter. The clock is ticking, and it has essentially one product it must sell, because the peripherals -- even, as noted, the lenses -- are useless without it. Godspeed, Digital Bolex.
 
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pulpfiction007 said:
Sorry, I don't buy it. There is a post on their forum from January "talking about the finer points of sensor calibration"....then another in early February saying that they were getting and image and just had to "tweak" it....
EVERYTHING has thrown off their camera schedule...they've missed 3 projected release dates. You can call it what you will, but the facts are the facts.
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Such is the path of new product development. It is not an easy or predictable thing for any company, even the big ones. The big boys don't let you see what goes into the sausage or any of the problems they had along the way or even how long it took them to develop. How long did it take Canon or Panasonic to do minor updates to the 5d2 and GH2? 3 years? Where is the serious upgrade for the AF100?

I have yet to see any announcement of a release date from Digital Bolex. Joe has estimated general time frames as a goal, but such things are not predictable, especially for a small startup with limited resources, and no scheduled ship date has ever been announced. As of SXSW in March they were not getting an image through the signal chain from an assembled camera with final hardware. Bench tests of individual boards and components of the system are not the same as the assembled camera and you don't know what problems you will encounter until they show up.

We have watched similar development delays with Red products since the Red 1, BMC still has development and QC issues with the BMCC even though they are shipping. I don't see their cameras killing the market for anything else. Not DSLR's, not bread and butter video cameras, not the Ikonoskop, and not the Digital Bolex. There is plenty of room for all.

Digital Bolex is organized for direct sale of limited production runs numbering in the hundreds at a time, not mass market retail distribution. That is all the market they need for success. The D16 is very appealing to many of us who came from 16mm film backgrounds. I think they will have no problem selling as many as they can make.
 
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