BlackMagic - URSA Mini

Why because you have to wait a few more months to get a product? BM may be a bit aggressive in its estimates of when it will deliver products but that has more to do with the fact that they actually tell us what they are doing instead of the competition that waits to tell us when it is almost ready. Plus BM is a smaller company and it takes time to ramp up production for them. Give them a little slack. They have done more to push the limits or post production and now production than most other companies have.
 
Panasonic has always announced at nab and delivered in Sept. BMD announces it nab, estimates late summer, delivers a year later :-)
 
Thomas Smet said:
Why because you have to wait a few more months to get a product? BM may be a bit aggressive in its estimates of when it will deliver products but that has more to do with the fact that they actually tell us what they are doing instead of the competition that waits to tell us when it is almost ready. Plus BM is a smaller company and it takes time to ramp up production for them. Give them a little slack. They have done more to push the limits or post production and now production than most other companies have.
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Black Magic is notorious for not telling even their own employees what they're doing, let alone prospective customers. It annoys a lot of people, and it's typical of their customer service (a big weak point), but their products have almost always been worth the wait. If they cost as much as competing products they wouldn't be... but cost-wise, they're not even in the ballpark. Image-wise, on the other hand... well, the Ursa Mini will almost certainly be worth the wait. Plus, the cost of CFast2 media is steadily decreasing while we wait. And the current cameras still make great images in the mean time.
 
Tamerlin said:
Black Magic is notorious for not telling even their own employees what they're doing, let alone prospective customers. It annoys a lot of people, and it's typical of their customer service (a big weak point), but their products have almost always been worth the wait. If they cost as much as competing products they wouldn't be... but cost-wise, they're not even in the ballpark. Image-wise, on the other hand... well, the Ursa Mini will almost certainly be worth the wait. Plus, the cost of CFast2 media is steadily decreasing while we wait. And the current cameras still make great images in the mean time.
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Well said!
 
My point is that is anybody's life really suffering because of the delays? I understand people really want this stuff but the delays are not really hurting anybody. This is a first world problem and nothing of major consequence to anybody. If the products were not announced you wouldn't even know they were coming. The way I always look at new products is that if they are not available yet then they do not exist. You make do with what you have until those products are a reality. Stressing out over a delayed product is rather silly if you ask me.
 
When a company consistently fails to meet its product launch timelines, each and every year, then the company is not honest in its communication. It is no longer about capability and trying hard etc etc, but it is clearly intentional miscommunication. It is deliberately misleading its prospective customers. Some people here may not attach much importance to ethics given that the price is cheap, however, there are others who value honest and open communication.
 
Yes, some people hold off buying products that are currently out in anticipation of it being released, and this is Black Magic's ploy to take you off the market in advance by announcing a release date they know they can't come close too. I get what their doing trying to hold the market with a good product and false promises, but it's getting old and it's not good business. If your going to announce a product at least come close to the time you state it will be released. It's like the boy who cried wolf, eventually people will ignore their announcements and say, I'll just buy now because this company's product though it may seem good won't be out for at least a year from the date they say. Everyone knows their customer service is not the greatest already, and their not improving things by continually lying to the public about their products.
 
Gary W said:
Yes, some people hold off buying products that are currently out in anticipation of it being released, and this is Black Magic's ploy to take you off the market in advance by announcing a release date they know they can't come close too. I get what their doing trying to hold the market with a good product and false promises, but it's getting old and it's not good business. If your going to announce a product at least come close to the time you state it will be released. It's like the boy who cried wolf, eventually people will ignore their announcements and say, I'll just buy now because this company's product though it may seem good won't be out for at least a year from the date they say. Everyone knows their customer service is not the greatest already, and their not improving things by continually lying to the public about their products.
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Exactly.
 
As always, it doesn't matter what they do or don't do because the prices are too low to complain. 99% of people will put up with absolutely everything they do because it's better than paying $10K-$20K for something else. And if they lose 10 customers, they will gain another 100.

The image is too good even if the cameras have quirks.
 
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NorBro said:
As always, it doesn't matter what they do or don't do because the prices are too low to complain. 99% of people will put up with absolutely everything they do because it's better than paying $10K-$20K for something else. And if they lose 10 customers, they will gain another 100.

The image is too good even if the cameras barely work.
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In any case, while it's annoying that they're so consistently bad at estimating and talking to prospective customers, it's also true that the only people who were "harmed" by the delays are people who made the mistake of planning projects based on NAB announcements.

That's never wise, even if it's not Black Magic making the announcements.
 
I get both sides, they really should have just said shipping Summer/Fall. That way the people who love to hate on BMD will have to find something else to gripe about. I for one expect them to be late on delivering and I make plans accordingly. When it ships it ships, the only money I have tied up is the money I want to be tied up, no one should be putting down a non-refundable deposit. And no one should be paying ahead of time, so what really is the matter? If you feel they are being dishonest that's fine, but by now most educated people should know not to take there overly optimistic (or lies) delivery times seriously.

And here is the thing if people are tired of waiting they can still go buy something else. But the reality is people that want a camera with a great image, internal ProRes and Raw and don't have a huge budget will wait. BMD knows that and if people with smaller budgets still would have to wait just as long to purchase a camera that can maybe do the same things at a much higher cost. I say all that to say I don't think they are lying to hold people off on buying. Working pros are buying or renting what they need, lower budget students or hobbyists are going to maximize there dollars and purchasing power.

But for the love of God just give out seasons not months.
 
Gary W said:
Yes, some people hold off buying products that are currently out in anticipation of it being released, and this is Black Magic's ploy to take you off the market in advance by announcing a release date they know they can't come close too. I get what their doing trying to hold the market with a good product and false promises, but it's getting old and it's not good business. If your going to announce a product at least come close to the time you state it will be released. It's like the boy who cried wolf, eventually people will ignore their announcements and say, I'll just buy now because this company's product though it may seem good won't be out for at least a year from the date they say. Everyone knows their customer service is not the greatest already, and their not improving things by continually lying to the public about their products.
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And why do you plan projects based on products that are announced but not yet a real product with real world use? Thats just dangerous and silly. You use whats out there. If you have a project coming up buy a camera that fits the needs for today and not what it might be tomorrow. We don't even know yet how well any of their new products will work. I find that extremely dangerous and silly to plan a serious project around that. If you held off buying a tried and true real product because you are constantly climbing the mythical ladder of better image quality that is your own fault. Chances are a client hired you for a project based on your skill and not a camera you might have next year.

I will bet my life that there is no conspiracy here to get people to stop buying current cameras. At the same time Blackmagic is hurting themselves because in theory people would also stop buying their own existing cameras and products which probably hurt their sales a lot more than it does the sales of Canon, Sony and Panasonic. The only fault BM really has is an inability to judge how long their limited production facilities will be able to meet a deadline. More likely to do with an unexpected demand for the announced products. This is a small but ambitious company and it isn't always easy to ramp up production for gear at this level for a company like this. Some small gear startup companies make one or two products and that is a lot easier to manufacture than a whole series of complex electronics.

How long did it take for people to get the Red camera when it first came out? My boss like everybody else was on a waiting list. He got one of the first batch because he pre ordered when the camera was first announced but some people had to wait a long time to get their RED cameras. That right there is a fundamental difference in manufacturing methods. Some companies like Red will make a few and ship them a bit at a time while other companies wait until they have a solid amount of stock to ship out. Shipping is a huge cost factor for a manufacturing company and you don't just ship out 10 units at a time and wait a week to ship out the next 10 units.

Again this is a first world problem of entitled people.
 
Thomas Smet said:
The only fault BM really has is an inability to judge how long their limited production facilities will be able to meet a deadline. More likely to do with an unexpected demand for the announced products. This is a small but ambitious company and it isn't always easy to ramp up production for gear at this level for a company like this. Some small gear startup companies make one or two products and that is a lot easier to manufacture than a whole series of complex electronics.
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This isn't the first time this has happened. They are now an established company with a deep product line. There is no excuse for the severely missed deadlines. All the other points from the buyer's perspective are on point, but you need to ease up on being an apologist for every camera manufacturer. They are big boys and I'm sure they can handle the criticism that in this case is very valid.
 
Well, I'm waiting for the 5" monitor because of price and the fact it will record to the codecs I want. I wouldn't say held hostage, but I would say if they can't come close to the release dates they set, then yes they are doing it on purpose.
 
I guess it depends also on what people think is close. They said they would ship at the end of July, if they ship in October is a 2 to 3 month delay that egregious? Would you rather them ship in July, promise firmware upgrades that didn't come for another 6 months or more? Again they should be criticized because all they should say is shipping Summer/Fall that gives them the rest of year all most. Other manufactures do that and they take a lot less heat.
 
Dafilman21 said:
I guess it depends also on what people think is close. They said they would ship at the end of July, if they ship in October is a 2 to 3 month delay that egregious? Would you rather them ship in July, promise firmware upgrades that didn't come for another 6 months or more? Again they should be criticized because all they should say is shipping Summer/Fall that gives them the rest of year all most. Other manufactures do that and they take a lot less heat.
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It's a bit ironic, but because Black Magic charges so much less than the competition does for their cameras, a lot of people expect more. Like complaints about the Ursa Mini not having integrated NDs... while there's no denying that integrated ND filters would be helpful for quite a few people, it would also drive up the price, so it still makes no sense to regard that as a negative given the rest of what the Ursa Mini offers and at what price.

Truthfully, odds are that only a minority of people who buy a 4.6K Ursa Mini will actually use it well enough to gain any benefit over the capabilities of a BMPCC anyway. Most people buying the 4.6K cameras are doing it because the specs sound suspiciously like "talent" in the eyes of camera dongles...
 
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