Bitter satire from an old sound mixer. You should probably just skip it.

Gohanto said:
$50,000 for the best? For the cables maybe... but if you want the best you need to start aiming at ~$5,000,000 and you can reach something like this...
:beer:

awesome-home-theater-kipnis-2.jpg
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Where did you find this? I have to know more about it. It's absolutely awesome. Insane, stupid...but awesome. In a...you know...really bad way...
 
MattinSTL said:
i1clark... I don't know what to make of that (I can't tell where you're going with that... upset, agreeing... don't know)...
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What bothers me about the satire, and certain sentiments expressed variously, and almost exclusively in the 'audio' section, that some how things audio are beyond the ken of ordinary mortals, and so leave it to the 'professionals', and especially don't whine about the price of the equipment because it's 'special'.

In the video section there's lots of talk about adding a 35mm adaptor to some set of prosumer cameras... My personal opinion is that this approach is plain crap. The lens on the camera was design with a specific goal in mind, so, use it for that goal...

On the other hand, other than pointing out there are classics in film where 'deep focus' was sought at 'great cost', and is now for 'free' in the prosumer camera, I don't have any need to say someone should leave cinematography to 'the professionals'.

And further I'm not going to claim that I can foresee the future, and know that their efforts are futile... heck, "9 Songs"(2004) which was shown at Cannes, was shot on a DVX100, and 'transfered' to film by projecting said DVX100 SD output on a screen then captured via a 35mm film camera. (At least that how I recall it was transfered...)

Now, had those film makers asked for advice here, given the various responses I've seen in this forum, they would not have gotten any useful response.

If some people don't like the potential democratization of the production of entertainment, fine... be 'professional'... but don't expect everyone to bow and propitate themselves in the audio engineer's, who has such an attitude, presence.

Further, most people who do continue on in to the industry most likely will eventually either specialize into various areas, or hire professionals when their needs require. So, the 'fear' and the 'laothing' of young upstarts who have perhaps more money than brains, is unwarrented.
 
Gohanto said:
It's a company's demo room... http://www.kipnis-studios.com/The_Kipnis_Studio_Standard/Cinema_Beta.html

I haven't been there, but I've listened to several setups with a few of the same amps and speakers.... if you have the money it's sooooo worth it.
Click to expand...

I think there's a resurgence of 'boutique' film houses, that seat, perhaps 40 or so. But I don't think they would have the ability to justify a $5M investment... more like a couple of Walmart boomboxes, and a styrofoam beer cooler...
 
Maybe that's why I don't see Oleg on the board anymore!


dave edgar said:
Hey Matt.

Well, Jonny kept taking all the peroxide . . .

No, I understand what you are saying, I think, but the post does cover the ignorance factor of those who either (a) post without bothering to search for info, or (b) just refuse to try to find out.

I teach at 2 local colleges, I encourage dreamers every day, I was just trying to point out how ridiculous some ouf our conversations sound when applied to other professions. Post my post on a real job board equivalent and it would be written off as the work of a loon, but in film it happens multiple times a day and is accepted, and sometimes encouraged. Unfortunately, then, I am the one who who tries to shoot a film somewhere directly after Cecil B. Demented has come through and trashed free locations, bummed free food from the restaurants, tried to sleep with all the daughters and broke all the permit laws.

But we're not dealing with the home theater buyer, most of these people have been told the price of things, and why it costs so much, and they just don't care or think it doesn't apply to them. There is a big discussion going on now on the RED user forum sound section where a bunch of newbies are arguing that the RED sound is actually fine for features, and that those of us espousing double system sound are just "film dinosours" who can't accept that you don't need a mixer or decent pre-amps anymore, just the magical RED and a cheap electret condenser and let the camera man ride gain with no headphones and why should I pay you the sound will be great. I haven't gotten sucked into that one yet but it is a case of people who know very little about what they are talking about acting as if they know all and we are just a bunch of dummies for spending $2000 on that Schoeps. Don't we KNOW that the AT835 is JUST AS GOOD and you can mount it on the camera and you don't need a boom guy either it is great. The arrogance of the young to assume that we have been doing it wrong all these years and we are so stupid, they can show us how if they can just get a free crew to work for them and let them borrow some stuff. Oh well, I kind of actually like that film can encourage this kind of dreamer, but it really gets tedious seeing the same kinds of these posts day after day on 10 different message boards and Craigslist.

well , I have already typed more than this was worth, I was just trying to have some fun on a Tuesday morning in humidity hell. That is all.
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j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
What bothers me about the satire, and certain sentiments expressed variously, and almost exclusively in the 'audio' section, that some how things audio are beyond the ken of ordinary mortals, and so leave it to the 'professionals', and especially don't whine about the price of the equipment because it's 'special'.
Click to expand...


There are some simple facts (<important word) about audio gear. I'm not talking about the highest end gear, but at the very least... enough to get the job done in a predictably satisfactory manner... i.e. professional accountability.

Sure, there are audio pros that have $30K+ in sound gear... and they may push for a complete top end kit... but that is the minority, not the audio forum in general. I don't think it's fair to paint with such broad strokes... ESPECIALLY around here! Jeez... we are the ambassadors to "economic solutions" on this forum!

BUT... I never lie to somebody only to make them feel good. Say... wireless for example... Sennheiser G2 is the minimum wireless anybody should use... and we ALL know (everybody, not just audio guys) that even that is a gamble. Everybody knows that Lectro is the real entry standard for (almost) guaranteed professional results... but Lectro is high... so what do I tell people? Exactly what I just said! I gamble with G2 sometimes... but there are times I wouldn't even consider the gamble!

The simple fact with any audio system with a good means of monitoring a return... is what you hear is what you get. Nobody would argue with that, just like nobody would argue with using a calibrated monitor and being able to say what you see is what you get.

The spirit of the OP's satire was in the fact that people come along with little to no experience in audio... and they don't say "hey somebody else that doesn't know sh*t please answer all my questions"... no, they say "hey pro audio guys... please answer my questions"... and then when you do... if they don't like the answer because it is too hard, too inconvenient, or costs money they don't want to spend... they argue against the answer.

The OP's point is (if I read it correctly) that it's frustrating... and he just wanted to vent.

Realize that MOST PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BOTHER WITH THE TROUBLE TO GET GOOD SOUND... I'm not even talking about "hey we're doing this for a feature to get Hollywood quality audio"... no, I'm talking about even acceptable for a film festival sound... MOST PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BOTHER... when the shoot starts nobody wants to be bothered with audio... but when the shoot ends, if the sound isn't good... the project is in trouble and the PA they got to hold their shiny new pole and mic just gained an undeserved bad reputation for "ruining our project".

In case you hadn't noticed... the audio on MOST indi projects sucks... on MOST of them. Most film festival entries... audio sucks... most low budget productions of ANY kind... commercials... anything... audio sucks.

It's NOT that it's "beyond the scope of mortals"... it's that a professional can't keep his job if he gets tired of booming correctly and just hangs the boom 5' over the shot 'cause it's easier then following the actors.

Choose any manual profession... building a keystone wall or whatever... or ANY profession that uses labor + tools... and you'll see that the professionals have the right tools... and they do things that normal people don't screw with... because they know what tools work... and they know how things get put together the right way.

The constant suggestions about hiring professionals isn't about somebody else not being able to handle the job... it's about labor + tools... and lack of experience in labor, experience with the tools, or lack of the tools themselves makes the suggestion to hire a professional just as valid as it would be if you needed a plumber, an electrician, a roofer, or any other person who gets paid to do a specific job... but I realize that right now people are flooding their carpets, creating fire hazards, causing leaky roofs, etc. etc. because they think professionals and/or the proper tools/materials aren't needed... and yes, there are also some handy guys that can make a successful repair or installation on their own, getting the same result as a professional... but this whole conversation isn't about THAT guy. It's about the guy that comes to you saying "I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm ready to buy some tools"...
 
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j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
What bothers me about the satire, and certain sentiments expressed variously, and almost exclusively in the 'audio' section, that some how things audio are beyond the ken of ordinary mortals, and so leave it to the 'professionals', and especially don't whine about the price of the equipment because it's 'special'.

In the video section there's lots of talk about adding a 35mm adaptor to some set of prosumer cameras... My personal opinion is that this approach is plain crap. The lens on the camera was design with a specific goal in mind, so, use it for that goal...

On the other hand, other than pointing out there are classics in film where 'deep focus' was sought at 'great cost', and is now for 'free' in the prosumer camera, I don't have any need to say someone should leave cinematography to 'the professionals'.

And further I'm not going to claim that I can foresee the future, and know that their efforts are futile... heck, "9 Songs"(2004) which was shown at Cannes, was shot on a DVX100, and 'transfered' to film by projecting said DVX100 SD output on a screen then captured via a 35mm film camera. (At least that how I recall it was transfered...)

Now, had those film makers asked for advice here, given the various responses I've seen in this forum, they would not have gotten any useful response.

If some people don't like the potential democratization of the production of entertainment, fine... be 'professional'... but don't expect everyone to bow and propitate themselves in the audio engineer's, who has such an attitude, presence.

Further, most people who do continue on in to the industry most likely will eventually either specialize into various areas, or hire professionals when their needs require. So, the 'fear' and the 'laothing' of young upstarts who have perhaps more money than brains, is unwarrented.
Click to expand...


Well my post was about the attitude of the people asking the questions, not the equipment. However, when someone who's never shot anything in his life tells me that he "can get just as good sound with a $50 microphone mounted on the camera" as I can with my crew and that we are then by implication overpriced and over equipped, I know that (1) he hasn't bothered to listen to the differences (2) He's not got the budget to afford us anyway and (3) I bet he would still take us if he could get us for free.

But I have invested alot in equipment because a professional should be able to handle almost any situation. I have expensive mics that I may only use 3-4 times a year, but they make all the difference when I need them. And, more importantly, I not only have them but I know when I need to use them. Anyone can get good sound most of the time in ideal conditions, with a little common sense. The professionals get good sound when it's not easy, when the set sucks and things go wrong and all that.

I am not saying anyones efforts are futile, either. I support filmmakers of all levels, but not the ones whose arrogance exceeds their skill level, or the ones who want to minimize my skills simply because they can't afford them.

And I would bet good money that the filmmakers who made the film you mention that went to Cannes didn't minimise the skill level needed to make their film, either. I bet they didn't try to get pros to work for free with ads on Craigslist, either. I have been in this business long enough to know enough people that, if I found a project I thought was worthy, I could put together a crew to shoot it gratis. But that is another difference here, I don't believe that it is fair for me to use other people to make my films for free. My rule is that if anyone on my set is getting paid, everyone is getting paid. And I respect the pros I work with enough to pay them for their work. And for every newbie you can name who got to Cannes I can name 1000 who didn't, made a bunch of enemies, blew every dime that they had, and made a shi*ty film because "they knew better than these old farts who don't understand the the new technology levels the playing field, democratizes the filmmaking process, makes it available to everyman, what do I need a 1st AC for, the cameras have autofocus now you dinosaur. "

Again, no one would go to a carpenters board, or a mechanics, or any other skilled trade and post the kinds of things we see here, AND THEN ARGUE with the answers that they get. It just doesn't happen, except in film. And the only reason it was posted in the audio section is because that is the section I read most, see it alot, and really the audio guy/gal has the least to gain from working on a free project than anyone. I've never heard a producer say "Wow, that was a great film, let's get the sound crew who worked for free on it so our next feature can be that good"

Wow, when someone tells a chicken crossing the road joke, do you guys analyze the chicken, the road, the weather, and his motivation, the OP's motivation, on and on ad infinitum?

It was joke, not a philosophy nor a manifesto nor a testament nor a window into my little pea brain. Just a joke.
 
dave edgar said:
Again, no one would go to a carpenters board, or a mechanics, or any other skilled trade and post the kinds of things we see here, AND THEN ARGUE with the answers that they get. It just doesn't happen, except in film. And the only reason it was posted in the audio section is because that is the section I read most, see it alot, and really the audio guy/gal has the least to gain from working on a free project than anyone. I've never heard a producer say "Wow, that was a great film, let's get the sound crew who worked for free on it so our next feature can be that good"

Wow, when someone tells a chicken crossing the road joke, do you guys analyze the chicken, the road, the weather, and his motivation, the OP's motivation, on and on ad infinitum?

It was joke, not a philosophy nor a manifesto nor a testament nor a window into my little pea brain. Just a joke.
Click to expand...


No sweat. I got it and agreed with it... and the sentiments in your first paragraph above... I've been a little blown away by the long-ass dissertations on why sound guys really are snobs... or whatever the hell the point was... I can tell you, that at least in STL... the sound guys are BY FAR the coolest and most laid back guys on the entire crew... by MILES.

I work with dudes that use cooper mixers and a Schoeps is the cheapest mic in their kit... and yet guess what... no audio snobbery there... we all just want the best result and to get called for the next gig... if a particular piece of gear helps insure that happening... that's what we use.

If somebody wants to drive nails with a pipe wrench, I could give a sh*t less... but if you ask me how to drive a nail, my first response will be that maybe you should hire a professional until you know what you're doing, and my second response will be the suggestion of a decent hammer... and if you argue with me about both of those things I still won't lose a second of sleep if you want to bang those nails in with that pipe wrench.
 
MattinSTL said:
Realize that MOST PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BOTHER WITH THE TROUBLE TO GET GOOD SOUND... I'm not even talking about "hey we're doing this for a feature to get Hollywood quality audio"... no, I'm talking about even acceptable for a film festival sound... MOST PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BOTHER... when the shoot starts nobody wants to be bothered with audio... but when the shoot ends, if the sound isn't good... the project is in trouble and the PA they got to hold their shiny new pole and mic just gained an undeserved bad reputation for "ruining our project".

In case you hadn't noticed... the audio on MOST indi projects sucks... on MOST of them. Most film festival entries... audio sucks... most low budget productions of ANY kind... commercials... anything... audio sucks.
Click to expand...

I am very much aware of how bad audio is. For most of the offerings, here and in other venues, I usually watch them with the sound off. If in a short film, the 'visuals' are not enough to carry the story... Ok that may be my particular value system... (And my short film efforts of last fall had crappy audio, just so it wouldn't stand out of course... but it did take 1st place in the Bugtussle County Fair... needless to say I totally forgot to monitor the audio at any time, and take full repsonsiblity for the crappiness...)

If the purpose of this section is to disseminate more information about how to get 'good' audio in the first place, then I think the 'satire' does not really fit, nor does the 'hire the professional'.

In the latter case, that is always an obvious option for people who have enough money to just go out and offer the current rate... One doesn't learn much from that option, other than how to fillout a purchase order and check.

Also on that note, had I such a funded project, I definitely would think first about people who 'helped me or others out', before people whose typical response was 'hire a pro'... if getting gigs is someone's primary point of participation, I'm positive there are better venues for such, and perhaps less frustrating...

Again, what bother me was that I have seen this attitude more in this audio forum that elsewhere. If somebody thinks they're going to get better sound than Feeltheforceskywalker, or whatever... a 'let it slide' attitude in my opinion goes further...
 
Dude you invalidate your own points in the very same post.

I'm baffled by how vehemently you say all this is snobbery... and then so casually admit that most sound (from these very same guys "we" are trying to help) sucks.

I think I'm going to have to pull out of this one...

"yes it's crystal clear that nobody gets the right tools or learns how to use the tools they get... so much so that I make it regular practice to turn the sound off... but I have to completely and thoroughly explain at length why I have a problem with this forum that tries to help people grow"

I guess you should continue to be annoyed by the people that are trying to help these guys... and continue to watch movies with the sound off?

Now THAT is confusing logic.

You are literally arguing that the SOUND in a movie isn't that important to you... that if the production is done right... you basically don't need sound... and yet you feel compelled to sh*t on the audio professionals... I seriously don't get it.
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
I am very much aware of how bad audio is. For most of the offerings, here and in other venues, I usually watch them with the sound off. If in a short film, the 'visuals' are not enough to carry the story... Ok that may be my particular value system... (And my short film efforts of last fall had crappy audio, just so it wouldn't stand out of course... but it did take 1st place in the Bugtussle County Fair... needless to say I totally forgot to monitor the audio at any time, and take full repsonsiblity for the crappiness...)

If the purpose of this section is to disseminate more information about how to get 'good' audio in the first place, then I think the 'satire' does not really fit, nor does the 'hire the professional'.

In the latter case, that is always an obvious option for people who have enough money to just go out and offer the current rate... One doesn't learn much from that option, other than how to fillout a purchase order and check.

Also on that note, had I such a funded project, I definitely would think first about people who 'helped me or others out', before people whose typical response was 'hire a pro'... if getting gigs is someone's primary point of participation, I'm positive there are better venues for such, and perhaps less frustrating...

Again, what bother me was that I have seen this attitude more in this audio forum that elsewhere. If somebody thinks they're going to get better sound than Feeltheforceskywalker, or whatever... a 'let it slide' attitude in my opinion goes further...
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So the person who doesn't think that sound contributes enough to a project to actually turn it on when watching also doesn't think that hiring a professional is a proper answer to the "how do I get good sound? question.

interesting perspective.

Too bad almost everyone else on the planet disagrees with you and spends alot of money to get it right.

Filmmaking costs money. Period. If you want to play the game, you have to pay. If you show up at the race with a cobbled together car, no matter how fast it may be, you still aren't going to get to play with the big boys until you prove your skill as a driver. And telling them that are doing it wrong because they go to the trouble to raise the money is, well, uncool at best.

If you want to be an amatuer filmmaker on the cheap, so be it. But don't show up in a room of unknown people of different levels of experience and ask a bunch of clueless questions and then argue with the answers. Just because I happen to read this board doesn't mean that I "owe" anyone who asks a question an answer, and it gets real old to keep answering the same questions over and over, and see others doing it over and over.

sometimes the best, most economical answer is "hire a pro" and alot of filmmakers have been glad over the years that they did this. Funny its only the ones without any money who believe that a pro sound crew brings nothing to the table. The filmmakers with money tend to try to hire the very best and pay a premium for them and are glad to get them when they can. Jeff Wexler and Crew Chamberlain and others bring more value to a production than I ever could, because of their years of knowledge. and yes, their expensive equipment package. and they are worth every penny.
 
MattinSTL said:
Dude you invalidate your own points in the very same post.

I'm baffled by how vehemently you say all this is snobbery... and then so casually admit that most sound (from these very same guys "we" are trying to help) sucks.

.
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I'll answer both of you who have expressed essentially the same sentiment.

No, it is just a statement that I don't how to 'assist' someone when the audio is bad. Aand rather than just not watch the material, I watch it and comment on the visuals, which I may have more ability to be helpful.

As for sound folks helpfulness, sure I've seen people respond to 'what mic this', or 'what situation' that, but I've also seen posts where someone does have a sound clip, and the 'reponses' have been on the order of 'that's why you should hire a pro'.

That may or may not be the standard for people posting crappy clips... I haven't seen someone post a bad clip here in a while.

I don't see the sentiment expressed in the kickoff post as being particularlly helpful, hence my diatribe response.
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
I don't see the sentiment expressed in the kickoff post as being particularlly helpful, hence my diatribe response.
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So every post in this forum has to be about "helping" the noob? (not meant as disrespectful, I'm using that word because it defines someone with very little experience)
I think there are more than enough threads constantly helping other people
but this (I thought) was a discussion area for sound.

Whether its talking about a piece of gear, or having an opinion in a certain
area, and this thread is doing exactly that. I for one totally "get" where the OP was coming from as im
sure many others do as well.

From what I see the people that do have experience in sound here go out of
their way in here to give free advice to people just starting out in audio,
and in fact answer the same questions over and over time and time again.

To expect everyone at all times to
cater to no one but the "beginner" in this forum is a total mistake
and does a dis service to the beginners who actually want to take
their craft further by hearing.. "ya know what, your 200 dollar mic just
isn't going to cut it" for more than your student level film..etc.

The sad part is how many threads constantly ask what piece of gear they should buy, instead of asking the questions they could be really learning from.

How to hide a wire, set etiquette, how to swing a pole correctly, how to mix multiple sources?!?!..etc..etc
 
dave edgar said:
Too bad almost everyone else on the planet disagrees with you and spends alot of money to get it right.
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'right' has a number of meanings depending on the situation. Spending 'lots of money' is not indicative of 'getting it right'... some people waste a lot of money, but that was one of your points wasn't it... or was it...

Filmmaking costs money. Period. If you want to play the game, you have to pay. If you show up at the race with a cobbled together car...
Click to expand...

And of course, like most analogies which may not quite fit, that depends on the race... or heck, even which highway system, and local laws... like the folks who like the expensive europeans sports cars, but in almost every state in the US, the top speed limits are about 1/4 to 1/3 of the 'top speed', so one can only presume their expense has nothing to do with actually moving a 200+ mph... oh... maybe they just don't like to be slew rate limited getting off the stop block at the intersection...

Personallly I go for pickup trucks... often the lowest price vehicle on the lot... brand new and with all the options... still the lowest price for any equivalent package. But basically it gets the job done.

If you want to be an amatuer filmmaker on the cheap, so be it. But don't show up in a room of unknown people of different levels of experience and ask a bunch of clueless questions and then argue with the answers.
Click to expand...

Your kickoff post had no audio answers, for any audio question asked, either on my part, since I didn't ask a question that you responded to, nor anyone else's part,
that I can tell.
 
Rippie said:
To expect everyone at all times to
cater to no one but the "beginner" in this forum is a total mistake
and does a dis service to the beginners who actually want to take
their craft further by hearing.. "ya know what, your 200 dollar mic just
isn't going to cut it" for more than your student level film..etc.
Click to expand...

Since I'm not knowledgeable in the area, I'm not going to write a faq on the subject of audio... but in the areas that I do have some knowledge in, I do post to 'noobs', sometimes over and over... hopefully not the same noob.

The sad part is how many "noob" threads constantly ask what piece of gear they should buy, instead of asking the questions they could be really learning from.

How to hide a wire, set etiquette, how to swing a pole correctly, how to mix multiple sources?!?!..etc..etc
Click to expand...

If a question is asked over and over, perhaps a faq is in order. I've read and comented a couple of things some people have written in the area of cinematography, most recentlly on the topic of 'white balance', which seems to be problematic for some people... once done, then it is a quick response to the next noob, of 'read the faq'...


And sure... if someone doesn't read the faq... continues to ask the same basic question, good point to declare the noob a lost cause.

Have I mentioned the advice of 'hire a professional', or that 'craigslist' is full of people wanting a free ride... (as a note audio or filmmkers in general are not the only target group for freeloaders...*) But it would never occur to me to do so, since that wasn't typically the question asked... the questions usually are asked in the form of 'how to...', or 'what can I do to...' etc. not 'where is the best place to hire...

And to take up your example... what is the real difference between a $200 dollar mic and a $1000... no you need not answer... just where's the faq on the making of a mic, what materials, electronics, etc. are taken in to consideration of why should I feel greatful for paying 4 times what brand x is, because it... is shielded better... has gold connectors... and why should I pay for gold, when after a few insertions the gold is scraped off... perhaps they make audio connectors better than gold plated computer connectors... etc... and need it be said... I definitely don't care for the 'because it's a Shure'... or whatever is the favored brand. Because as we all know, to use the sports car analogy that seem so popular, many 'brand' manufacturers will send out a 'brand name' on something that is far less than the others in the line, just to get those who want the band status, but really don't want to pay for it... (Like a number of Ferrari owners I've had as acquaintences... who would whine about their cars always being in the shop... I think the analogy breaks down, like the cars... but I digress...)

Since I'm gone tomorrow to take RF data samples in a steel jungle, you need not worry about me continuing for a day or so...

*More on the 'free ride'... almost ever consulting gig I've gotten started out looking like the potential client wanted to get a chunk of 'software/engineering/whatever' for free... and I've had to say at some point, this is as far as I'm going to go without a contract... I don't know why film industry people think they have a corner on this problem... I don't do craigslist for such work, because it is so notorious... but before craigslist, there were other job boards, where the same sort of thing would happen.

I don't do consulting anymore... but the potential customers for the firm I work for, attempt this on a bigger scale...
 
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Rippie said:
The sad part is how many threads constantly ask what piece of gear they should buy, instead of asking the questions they could be really learning from.

How to hide a wire, set etiquette, how to swing a pole correctly, how to mix multiple sources?!?!..etc..etc
Click to expand...

I think that's what this thread boils down to. The people that don't know what questions to ask generally need a pro sound guy the most of anyone, yet don't understand why they need one.

What I've found is that once most people work with their good sound mixer, good DP, good AD, ect... they you can't live without them in the future because they realize how helpful and vital that position really is. Does anyone believe that until they see it? Not really. Seeing is believing I guess.

For the people that want to just be filmmakers/directors, a basic understanding of each department is great and doing it yourself just fine when starting out and knowing you're not going to get professional quality, but hiring pros gives results that are faster, safer, and higher quality and let the filmmaker concentrate on what he really want to do. Direct a movie.
 
MattinSTL said:
The spirit of the OP's satire was in the fact that people come along with little to no experience in audio... and they don't say "hey somebody else that doesn't know sh*t please answer all my questions"... no, they say "hey pro audio guys... please answer my questions"... and then when you do... if they don't like the answer because it is too hard, too inconvenient, or costs money they don't want to spend... they argue against the answer.

The OP's point is (if I read it correctly) that it's frustrating... and he just wanted to vent.

Realize that MOST PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BOTHER WITH THE TROUBLE TO GET GOOD SOUND
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dave edgar said:
If you want to be an amatuer filmmaker on the cheap, so be it. But don't show up in a room of unknown people of different levels of experience and ask a bunch of clueless questions and then argue with the answers..
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I am glad I stopped in to catch this thread. Dave & Matt nail the issue perfectly above. The reason you see this attitude in the audio section is the people who stop by here are not here because they are excited about audio & how to achieve the best results, LIKE you find in the other sections. The amateurs who stop by the audio section are here to solve 'the problem' of audio. And when cheap and easy answers are not presented to them, they whine about the "audio snobs" who are telling them they can't do it.

And to those, who have been coming to the audio section awhile, the result is clear; the pros stop coming by to help. You could fill a graveyard with the audio pros, myself included (for the most part), who have stopped coming to this section to help. Not because of any particular negativity but an exhaustion of trying to help people who don't value what you do much less the advice you offer if it doesn't fit into the 'budget of effort & money' they are willing to expend on audio. There are still several pros in here who are sticking it out, and I commend them (especially Matt), but if the attitude reflected by the OP's satire doesn't change, I think you will find them leaving eventually too.

For me, my attitude changed when I realized the irony of arguing with posters, who wanted to waste money on some piece of crap, when I simply didn't care if someone that contemptuous of sound wasted their money.

As a post script, there were (and are, I assume) many seeking help who are grateful of the assistance being offered in here. Their gratitude was noticed & I hope they pay that help forward.

-For all other concerns refer to my sig below
 
This board is about sound, from clueless beginner to seasoned pro. Day after day, the people on this board give solid advice; how to put together a kit on a (generally non-existent) budget, or explaining yet again that there's no such thing as a 'remove echo' filter, and maybe the mic should be a little closer than 10' from the talent. All in spite of the fact that there are pretty solid answers to be found in the stickies or the search. Believe it or not, that can sometimes get old.

The majority of people asking questions on this board probably aren't looking to do sound professionally. They're looking for quick answers to either spend as little as possible to get 'good sound' on their next no-budget project, or fix sound that was poorly recorded in the first place.

Now, is it more effective for these people to buy their own sound gear and get some random friend to swing the boom, or hire someone (who will bring their own kit) that knows what they're doing? Unless you're looking to do sound (as hobbyist or professional), hiring someone is probably more effective.

A big problem is 'gear lust'. People want to get their hands on shiny new toys, so they'll spend the money on the gear instead of hiring someone.

(On Preview, Wabbit and Gohanto nail it)
 
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