Best Audio

jlames

jlames

Well-known member
I'm looking for the best medium to record audio to for transfer directly into my NLE. I used DAT years ago but that was years ago. In capturing video and audio, I simply shoot onto miniDV, transfer the tape into a DV deck and use my NLE to capture. What's the cleanest way to record audio and then transfer into my NLE?
Jonathan
 
I'm looking for the best medium to record audio to for transfer directly into my NLE.
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There are a lot of people on this board with various backgrounds (from serious hobbyists to working audio pros) that can give you a more informed answer if they know what your budget is and what you're going to be recording.

If you want to record multiple tracks and can spend $12-15,000 on just a recorder, than a Zaxcom Deva IV or V hard disk recorder may be in your future. Of course, if you're shelling out this much for the recorder, than you'll also be spending several thousand on a good mixer, too.

Truth be told, the DVX cams probably record the best sound in their class. With good control of the environment, good mics, a good sound person, and a decent mixer in the chain, you can continue to record straight to cam and get perfectly acceptable audio for dialogue. This has the advantage of not having to sync everything back up in post.

If you have situations where you can't get close to the person (events, weddings) you can either go wireless or go with small pocket recorders (minidisc, hard disk) that can do the job.

So tell us what you're going to do, and what your budget is, and I guarantee that you'll get a whole boat load of answers.
 
Thank you and your answer which made great sense. The fact of the matter is I got just that answer from a number of others in other forums which helped me understand audio quite a bit more. Shooting XL2s and one XL1, I bought 2 Sennheiser g-2s with XLRs and a DSA-6 for XLR input into the XL1. For handheld interview I purchased a Sennheiser e835 with an ew100 wireless transmitter. The DSA 6 gave me phantom for the AT 4073a shotgun I also bought and for backup audio and recording of other sounds I purchased a Marantz PMD 670. I listened to the Sennheiser 66 and just liked the 4073a better and I like the fact that the Marantz records directly to CF cards for cheap, easy storage and can go direct to my computer without DAT issues. Along with a new boom pole, C-stand, tic-tac-toe mic isolator, Rycote muff and a few extra sandbags and I think this set-up will give me a good start at compiling an audio package I can understand and therefore use. I should be able to expand it when I start learning more. Can you think of anything I missed or should have?
 
I assume you meant a Beechtek DXA-6. While a good adapter, it doesn't have pre-amps like a mixer does. I'd consider upgrading to a good mixer (like the Sound Devices Mix-Pre or 302) IF you want to use the audio from the cam and not always rely on the audio from the 670.

I totally agree that the 4073 smokes the ME-66 (even though I still own a 66).

But the 4073 isn't good for interior shots, you'll need a hypercardioid for that. The least expensive mic for decent results seems to be the Octava MK 012 with the hypercardioid cap from the Sound Room. See this thread:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=38040

The G2 wireless setups are probably the best in their price range.

If that's a Rycote softie that you have, depending on the environment you're filming in, you might want to get a full Zeppellin kit:
http://www.trewaudio.com/catalog/items/item806.htm

And of course you have a decent set of headphones (like the Sony 7506's) to monitor audio on the set. Two sets if you have a dedicated audio guy (which is best if you've gone thru the trouble of investing in all this stuff).

A few threads here that you might want to review are:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=21535
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=36514
and
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=28072

All in all, sounds like you're off to a good start!
 
Thank you so much for taking the time to address this with more than 6 or 7 words. Your assistance means more that you know top people like me who are genuinely looking for some professional direction that we can consider in our search for the right equipment.

Two things on the Oktava M12; One, hard to find locally where I have rapid recourse for the second problem, unreliability. It's my understanding that the mic is a good mic, not a great one but a really good one ... when they work. Being produced in Russia, many people report having problems with one while the next guy says his is fine. Quality control?!?! Can you say Kikkrosoffkt! Anyway, not having to worry about budget (my wife and I did well in early life through hard work and this is rapidly turning from a hobby into a second career) I want to select the equipment I think sounds best. I went through this with the 4073A before bought it. If I've learned one thing, it's that there is no answer to, "What is the best mic? I have xxx to spend and I want the best!" I went through 2 dozen mics and talked to alot of people before I settled on the A-T for exterior. There were more expensive ones and cheaper ones but I settled on what I thought best. So, with that said, can I ask that you or anyone else out there take some time to discuss you're personal preferences. I'm always open to experts. We are shooting in Scottsdale the 18th through the 27th and have to make a selection before then.

Thanks again for all your insight.

Jonathan
 
jlames said:
Thank you so much for taking the time to address this with more than 6 or 7 words. Your assistance means more that you know top people like me who are genuinely looking for some professional direction that we can consider in our search for the right equipment.

Two things on the Oktava M12; One, hard to find locally where I have rapid recourse for the second problem, unreliability. It's my understanding that the mic is a good mic, not a great one but a really good one ... when they work. Being produced in Russia, many people report having problems with one while the next guy says his is fine. Quality control?!?! Can you say Kikkrosoffkt! Anyway, not having to worry about budget (my wife and I did well in early life through hard work and this is rapidly turning from a hobby into a second career) I want to select the equipment I think sounds best. I went through this with the 4073A before bought it. If I've learned one thing, it's that there is no answer to, "What is the best mic? I have xxx to spend and I want the best!" I went through 2 dozen mics and talked to alot of people before I settled on the A-T for exterior. There were more expensive ones and cheaper ones but I settled on what I thought best. So, with that said, can I ask that you or anyone else out there take some time to discuss you're personal preferences. I'm always open to experts. We are shooting in Scottsdale the 18th through the 27th and have to make a selection before then.

Thanks again for all your insight.

Jonathan
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The AT4073a is an excellent microphone for exterior shooting. The price vs. performance gap between this microphone and the Sennheiser MKH416 is actually startling. The 4073a is a move forgiving microphone, poorer off axis rejection, poorer rear rejection, and it is a hotter mic. Then again, those are qualities that I like, I want something more forgiving so an inexperienced operator can pick it up and run with it. There is a noticable sound difference if you listen closely, but for the majority of projects it should not be a big enough issue to deter someone from purchasing the Audio Technica. Furthermore, unless you have an experienced operator, or you personally are an experienced operator the MKH416 is not a good microphone purchase.

To match this selection you have three options, in my opinion: offerings from Oktava, AKG, & Schoeps (listed in order of price, of course).

Oktava:
I too did not have a local avenue to play with the Oktava, but based on recommendations and a rock bottom price point, what's the risk in purchasing something like this? There are several places that you can get an Oktava in the US. One of the best resources is www.sound-room.com, and if you enter DV in the coupon field you will receive a discount. Furthermore, there is a place that sells the Oktava on Ebay. Both of these places are the only ones that I know about that carry the genuine Russian Oktava. Guitar Center also carries them, but they are the Chinese versions which are prone to problems. You mentioned durability problems, but there are several pros on this board that have used the Oktava for a long time with no usage problems. Overall, as an owner of several hyper cardiod microphones the Oktava produces an excellent tone, very smooth, and adds very little flavor of it's own. I reach for this microphone whenever I am in a situation where it is pure dialogue and nothing else. I like the fact that the Oktava adds a little umph to the sound that improves the overall level of the audio while not becoming highly noticable. In other dialogue situations I reach for my AKG.

AKG:
I have the blue line system which is the SE300b, CK93, & Ck98. This provides me with the preamp power unit, shotgun cap, and hyper cardiod cap. For the money this is one of the best microphones available in my opinion. I am able to get high quality, hollywood like sound, with no problem. It is more forgiving regarding handling noise than the Oktava and provides a more natural sound. I love the fact that it is modular, but the best aspect of this microphone is the overall tone that is produced by it. This sounds clean, organic, and very natural. It is the microphone that I would most likely recommend to anyone if you have the $750 to complete the above set. Since you already have a good shotgun then it is hard for me to say whether this is the microphone for you. The hyper cap is better than the Oktava, significantly. The shotgun cap is not as good as the 4073a. I would say that the hyper cap is a foot ahead of the Oktava and the shotgun is an inch behind the 4073a. Most of this difference is in tonal differences and low end reproduction. I personally now own both. I would tend to lean more to the AT though.

Schoeps:
The best, most professional hyper cardiod made. I don't own one, never personally handled one, and can't say anything about it. I'm sure other people will chime in and fill in some gaps...
 
Any doubts about the quality control of the Oktavas are eliminated if you order from Sound Room. They test each one and if it isn't up to snuff, they don't sell it.
 
There are plenty of multi-k$ recorders out there for you to buy, but I can recommend the Fostex FR-2 field recorder. It uses standard CF memory cards, has phantom power, limiter, can record 24 bit 48kHz* (and even better if necessary, but never) and your PC sees it as a standard USB drive when you transfer the audio files (normal broadcast WAV). And only a bit over 1k$. Maybe not perfect, but what better can you get for that price???

*) I use the 24 bit recording to get extra headroom = safety, and convert to 16 bits in Audition after the basic adjustments.
 
What Yankee said...

I don't own the Octava or AKG, but have heard Matt G.'s and really like them (though the Octava is a bit more sensitive to handling noise).

I have a Sennheiser ME-64 hypercardioid that I got after I already had an ME-66. It's an OK mic, but a bit overpriced for what you get (IMO).

http://tinyurl.com/9bb55

I succumbed to the lure of getting a Schoeps MK 41 set a while ago, prior to a raise in their price. It's definitely a pricey mic, but that's about the only thing I can say bad about it.

http://tinyurl.com/8zxa5
 
If you are serious about quality and price is not a large concern (and Deva's are overkill for you) then the Sound Device 700 series is what you would probably want. I prattle on and on about it all over this forum :happy:

You have a choice between the 2 (722) or 4 channel (744t) version (4 comes with timecode). Do a search for 744t in here to hear me babble on about it.

Best
 
Thanks for the post! Unfortunately I didn't know about Guitar Center until after today (read my warning post sent to the Board just 3 minutes ago!) As for the Sound Room, that's where I'm headed. I really want to hear the Schoeps and if ti's that good, then I'll buy it. Your AKG was a revellation and I would have gone that way if I didn't already buy the 4073A and as you said, a foot ahead, a foot behind! And finally, I love that name Horse Films. Oddly and coincidentally, the shoot on the 18th-26th is a horse pilot we're doing in Scottsdale. I assume you're into horses from you moniker. My wife and I have four of our own with two yearlings.
 
OK, after the Guitar Center fiasco, I'm ordering the Oktavas from Sound Room this evening(Thanks Matt, Yankee & Joe Kras). Here's the question though. Right now, I'm going direct into the Canon XL series cameras w/o preamp. To fully recognize the sound of these mics and the 4073a, should I be going through an SD 302 mixer. I guess obviously the answer would be anything is better than direct but dose it warrant the $1100 I'll be putting out?
Jonathan
 
Gotta say it depends on how much you use the set up. Each time you use it decreases the cost per use. A mixer, unlike a camera, should easily last you 10 years or even more. That c\mes out to 100 dollars a year or less if the mixer is in use longer. How many times you going to use it in a year? How serious are you about the sound you record? Are you making money recording sound (not are you a professional sound recordist, but are the projects you create going to get sold)?

Are preamps in the SD mixer a significant improvement? Yes. Are the preamps in the DVX and XL adequate for TV dialog? Yes (barely but yes) Should you even be recording sound into the DVX or any camera if you are serious about theatrical sound? No.

To get good quality audio the whole signal chain must be good, from your mic to your cables to your preamps to your recording device. One weak link will compremise the whole chain.

Best
 
Why don't you buy the mic first and then decide. They don't come as a matched set.

I've got a buddy that used an XL2 for a project and used the camera's inputs exclusively... and I could get flamed for saying this, but I think the XL2 has better audio then the DVX. Try the mic and see what you think... you might be surprised.

Nobody's ever talked me into any of the gear I have... I've upgraded reluctantly over the years. You'll want the mixer before you need the mixer... so get the mic, enjoy it (I guarantee you will), do some video, and figure out where you want to take the sound from there.

I think it will go something like, "this is great, but it would be better if only I could..."

DING! Time to buy a mixer.
 
MattinSTL said:
You'll want the mixer before you need the mixer...
.
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This is true for any audiophile. We could all continue to buy better stuff, but at the end of the day, some of it is seeking perfection, some of it is gear lust, and some of it is just wanting.


I think that Matt's comment is the most true thing I've read in a long time.
 
Happy days thanks to you guys. I just placed my order fopr the Oktava through Sound Room. Now comes the issue of the SD 302. Do I buy or don't I? Comments anyone???
 
Yes!!!




No!!!!




I don't know :happy:

Matt did said it well. What equipment you should and should not buy is up to your business model and plan for use. Maybe if you laid out more of your plan for it's use, people could say, "invest elsewhere" or "this is a wise use of your limited funds."

To put a different way: I want to shoot a digital movie, should I buy a Varicam? Without knowning more about my situation, you can't inteligently answer that question for me.
 
wabbit said:
I want to shoot a digital movie, should I buy a Varicam?
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I can answer this. The question is yes. You should buy a Varicam, but you also should buy them for everyone who has posted on this thread to help you. I'm sure Panasonic would work out a discount. Hell, I'll even share one with Wabbit (but we're keeping it at my place)
 
Great idea, Yankee!

jlames, you rock! Thanks!

I'll share mine with Matt. Unless you want to buy me a separate one, in which case, I'll buy you the 302. :)
 
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