Being hired by competitors...

HotConductor

HotConductor

Well-known member
Cliff-notes version of the story:

I run a small production company. We have a few HMC150s, Glidecam HD 4000 w/smooth shooter arm and vest, nice editing stations with Adobe CS5 (full suite, Premiere, so forth), Sony Vegas 10 and about $1200 worth of great Magic Bullet plugins...

I shoot concerts, music videos, tours, commercials, wedding videos, so forth...

A friend/acquaintance who has been doing video for a while recently had his DVX break down. So now he has begun borrowing gear. He has been getting gigs but he has no gear of his own. He wants to hire me to be a glidecam operator for a day.

Here's my dilemma.. I do not want to aid him as a competitor. His work is sub-par and his client skills are lacking. If I work for him, or rent him my gear, it will only workout until he earns enough money to purchase his own gear. Then he will do as he has done in the past... undercut everyone, burn bridges so forth.

Thoughts?
 
I wouldn't be renting to someone who has no gear, period. I go through this all the time with friends. There are PLENTY of rental houses my friends can use and I want to keep our friendships NON-business related. There are friends who I do let borrow, but we work together on projects and they can replace something if broken. We cross share gear so we don't duplicate a lot of stuff we only need once in awhile.
 
I'm with you completely. The issue is that this guy was a friend who has been doing SD video for a while. He's one of those guys who views himself as a 'filmmaker' and is just now suddenly attempting to do video production. Prior to this it was all about his own films. I just don't want to help a mediocre videographer start competing against me. Its not necessarily fear on my part, but just a bad feeling about helping him. My business is doing just fine.
 
Making strategic relationships with competitors has been a valid and worthy tactic in the freelance business; back in Vegas we all ended up hiring each other and working for each other when appropriate. But your situation is different, in that you want to avoid enabling someone to slit your own throat.

Which is easy enough to do -- rent him your equipment and work his jobs, but do so at a healthy and fair rate. Don't let anyone borrow your stuff. And if he wants to hire you as a glidecam operator, do it if you feel like it -- at your full rate. And do a great job. If he's a bridge-burning undercutter, he won't be able to afford you and still undercut everyone. And if he stretches to the point where he can afford you, then he'll start to see the value of real work done by real pros, and will hopefully learn his lesson and start charging clients appropriately instead of trying to be the cheap guy.

Don't enable someone to slit your throat. Charge them full and appropriate rates, and that will take care of all the issues.
 
What Barry said. Where I live, I am pretty much the ONLY independent
full time video production guy. There are a LOT of talented people
in my town (like Mikko for example) but they have other employment,
working for a TV station, or the university, or the state, federal, or
city government. So I end up getting a lot
of work that is NOT the 'weekend warrior' type of thing that people
with other jobs can do. One time, I had a call from someone
who was 'kicking tires'. They wanted to have someone shoot an event
and edit a DVD......a typical 'end to end' type shoot that I do plenty of.
However, the potential client was very concerned with price,
it seemed that was all they wanted to know. I gave them my rate,
and figured I'd never hear from them again. However, after they found out
my rate, they started calling other people in town. Pretty soon, calls
from the other people started pouring in to me. THEY wanted to hire ME to
shoot the event (since they would be working at their REAL job) and then
THEY wanted to edit the event themselves, hoping to keep the lions share
of the income and pay me like $20 an hour or something to shoot the event.
The funny thing, was all these 'weekend warriors' didn't know that I knew
EXACTLY what was going on, as I already had been called about the same event!
I gave them my standard rate, which would not leave them nearly as much
money as they wanted to make.....basically, if they wanted to make a decent
amount of money doing this, they would HAVE to up their rates to be
similar to the rate that I had already quoted the potential client.
I had a few of them try and 'talk me in' to a lower shooting rate and
ask why they would need to pay me so much....funny stuff. I ended up
getting the entire gig at my initial quote to the client.

That's how I deal with my competitors trying to hire me (and it happens plenty of times).
I give them my full day rate.....and sometimes when it is a serious gig, I do get
hired that way. Just do NOT get talked into 'helping' them out. The only 'help'
you will be providing is helping your business fail.
 
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Yep. Exactly.

Working with competitors can work out well if you get your rate, and the competitor lands a job that you weren't even aware of. And when you land a job, it's nice to have others you can call on to help you out, and pay a fair rate to.

But this whole idea of someone undercutting you, and then asking for your help to help them undercut you -- screw that. Be above board, be fair, expect respect and give respect, and it can turn into something worthwhile. Unless they're just jerks, in which case you're better off without them, and if they are, then you raise your rates even higher to deal with the jerk factor.
 
Seriously, thank you all for your help. One more question...

When considering day rates, equipment rental rates, so forth... Is there an equation you use? I have heard people say in the past that 10% of the products value (a camera, tripod, whatever) is the day rate. Is that a reasonable starting point?

At this point working with this individual would be a lesser evil. Like you said, I need to adjust my rates to what is reasonable. Feel free to PM if you have specific advice that would aid me in this issue.

Thank you all again. I lurked on this forum for years before beginning to contribute.
 
Well, there are many ways to determine what your equipment should rent for. One is to contact rental houses in your area and ask them what the going rate is.

But the way I'd do it is -- don't rent it unless the dough is worth it. If you use the 10% rate, that might mean renting out your camera for a hundred bucks, but that may not be worth the hassle. You might decide you need at least $200 before you can be bothered to do it, etc.
 
I would add that the issue of your own reputation is at stake here, and even without worrying about this friend as a competitor (and it doesn't seem like he'd be much competition), you could lose business. That is, by your description, your friend is not professional and perhaps not competent. By working for him, you associate yourself with him, and with the whole experience of hiring him. Avoid working for people you don't respect, and who you don't think have good business/professional practices. That is never worth it.
 
I avoid renting to someone unless its someone I know pretty well and completely trust, and it will also mean future collaboration and income opportunities for business (and not just more rentals). I'm not a rental house, so I don't want to be treated like one.

You could offer your equipment ONLY if you go out with it, and at a good rate. If there isn't budget for that rate, it's probably not the kind of project you want to be involved in. If you are involved, you can make it known to his client you are just a hired gun, a "go-to" guy for shooting in your area, and you are available for hire thru him. By doing this you are separating yourself, but cannot be accused of trying to "steal" a client because you are available THRU him. Then if the client wants you next time, he has to pay you what you want.

Try to find out what others in your area are charging for a DP with a similar package, and keep your rates near those. Don't price too low, or you can bring down rates for everyone because they are trying to stay competitive.

As long as he is doing sub-par work, and under-cutting everyone, he is not competition. Clients get what they pay for. If cost is their first priority, its not the clients you want. He can have them. If a client wants quality work, they have to pay for it. They have to hire you, because he can't give them the quality.
 
My personal philosophy/experience is I'll work with just about anyone once, as long as I get a fair rate, and I'll do my absolute best on the gig.
This had repaid me in referrals beyond what I could have expected and my work grew exponentially.

That said, like everyone, I've met a few clients along the way where the chemistry between us wasn't great so if they call on me again I'll just politely refer the work to a friend.
I think that's the most professional approach.

All in all though, it's been a great source of revenue to widen that circle of contacts for me, and has allowed me to work on a greater variety of projects.
 
You've got some good advice here. The only thing I would add, is that if you are going to do work for this guy, make sure you get payment pre arranged. Not saying it will happen, but if you hand over work,,tapes, drives, whatever, will you already have money or are you likely to not see any for 6 months or worse?
 
Seriously, thank you all for your feedback. In this situation I have given him a quote that would make it worth my time, and will likely be more than he can afford. I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY regarding the quality of work. If this guy were a pro, with high ethics and the ability to learn from mistakes, I would have a desire to work together. Truth be told, if his 'company' (being HIM) were to become successful, and he offered me a job, I likely wouldn't take it.

If he does contact me about the gig, payment will be made upfront for certain. I wont show up on site until I get a check from him, and I know for a fact that he can't provide that. If he couldn't repair his DVX then he definitely can't afford a check to me. Reminds me of all the student photographers and videographers out there who get a 5D and suddenly feel that they can provide a service that requires alot more than DOF.

Again, thank you all for your insight. There are very few places where I feel I can go for unbiased (or CORRECTLY-biased) opinions.

As a PS, if any of you have any insight in terms of networking on a national/international level, feel free to PM me. Not an advertisement, just would love to hear thoughts or any suggested websites for pursuing that option. I'm based in the middle of the States, but will be moving from away from a strictly local level. Not a discussion I would like to have as a public thread.
 
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