Before Sunrise -- hero's journey? conflict?

Randall_Oelerich

Randall_Oelerich

Veteran
I have not taken a close look at Before Sunrise (1995) yet for conflict, plot structure, etc. One of my favorite romance films-- and one of the few films to have earned rave reviews and 100% on rottentomatoes. Going to watch it again in a few days. Seems to stray from classic plot structure with conflict and typical turning points, or am I wrong? And if the story deviates significantly from classic turning points and conflict, how does it get away with that, why does that work?

From Wikipedia: "The plot is minimalist, since aside from walking and talking, not much happens. The two characters' ideas and perspectives on life and love are detailed. Jesse is a romantic disguised as a cynic, and Céline is seemingly a romantic, albeit with some doubts."

It just does not seem to follow the classic romance sructure of guy (Jesse) gets girl (Céline ), guy loses girl, guy gets girl, because they part at the end. Most of the film is philosophical dialog, albeit with some conflict in the form of disagreements, but not much more in the way of conflict. We are taught that without conflict there is no drama, and without drama there is no story, so why does this screenplay work when there really is very little conflict?
 
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No, haha, I definitely didn't. I haven't seen either of those, but I love After the Sunset. It's just a fun movie, gorgeous, and silly, but enjoyable. Not exactly high art, but great entertainment.
 
Never seen it, but even a little bit of conflict is conflict, no?

I mean the story of a guy and a girl is conflict in itself. A guy wants the girl, the girl wants the guy, they aren't together, that alone is conflict because they want to be together but aren't. Dissagreements or different points of view are conflict as well.

I think what you're honing in on is that Holywood always feels a need to push the conflicts to the extreme. Why have a girl and guy fall in love when they could have the guy be dissaproved by her family, or have this big love triangle, or have all kinds of secrets, etc.

And alas, all hollywood films tend to follow the same formula time and time again. I mean two people meet, they get together, but then something breaks them apart at the second plot point, then they get back together again (sometimes by running through an airport). Because "romance" is such a basic idea, and has very simple conflicts (with some variations), it's tough to find something fresh and new. This is why I love "indy" love stories, like Garden State, Dedicated (of course it follows some of these rules, yet it's still fresh), or 500 days of summer (though it is not a love story, the narrator says so).
 
R. Linklater's (writer-director) story is pretty cool. A self-taught filmmaker who has managed to make it in the biz! I just rented the movie because it's been a while. I'll watch it with STRUCTURE on my mind!

BTW, TSS could be just as successful;)

Kyle
 
Thanks greatly Kyle for the encouragement :) on TSS (eyes only current project<smile>). I should have Before Sunrise tomorrow to watch, we can compare notes here, anybody interested.
~randall
 
Maybe it doesn't have any of those things and uses it's own structure. Look at Waking Life- can't exactly break that down into "plot" or "conflict".
 
The cult classic My Dinner With Andre is also along this vein, two people having a conversation the entire movie. I need to rent MDWA again, five star film even though it is just two guys having dinner together, amazing what can be done with dialog.

Ryan Paige said:
... But it's also like eavesdropping on a conversation between two people. When we have conversations with other people, those conversations are not always telling stories to each other, but they can still manage to be entertaining.
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Okay there is some hero's journey structure, quite different than a typical screenplay, but it is there I think if one digs a bit. The basic story, for those unfamiliar-- Celine and Jesse meet on a train, get off and walk around Vienna all night before parting the next morning (she on to Paris, he to the airport for the USA).

The train serves as a sort of Ordinary World at the start of the story, Vienna being the Special World (New World). On the train at the start, an Inciting Incident-- a couple arguing (conflict) next to Celine, catalyzing the "cute meet" in which she goes to the back of the train car to then meet Jesse. He invites her (Call to Adventure) to get off the train to spend time walking around Vienna with him until his plane leaves in the morning. She is hesitant (Refusal of the Call), but with coaxing she agrees (Acceptance of the Call).

Most of the rest of the story seems to be philosophical discussions on life, death, love, romance. So in a sense we have a romance story where Identities are transforming into Essences (Michael Hauge terms-- fake personas giving way to the real deal). There is a first kiss about 30 minutes into the story. Not sure I could put a mark on a Midpoint, perhaps the infamous telephone conversation in the bar where they are really revealing commitment and like for each other, imho. A very brief climax scene where they must part ways, she back on the train and he to the airport-- and they decide they want to see each other again. They part, going back to their Ordinary Worlds, changed.
 
in my opinion, i agree with all you have said Randall but also think that their ordinary world is a little deeper than that, on an internal level. i feel as though their ordinary world is the world where they are lonely and without that special connection - and they enter the special world where they do share that connection. and then back into their ordinary world where they are alone again.....

i should watch this again though. i'm also interested in forming or joining a group that does what we are doing now... but on a regular basis... is there something like that on this website?

thanks. siraj.
 
Agreed. :thumbsup: Two journeys, the outer and inner.
siraj said:
in my opinion, i agree with all you have said Randall but also think that their ordinary world is a little deeper than that, on an internal level. i feel as though their ordinary world is the world where they are lonely and without that special connection - and they enter the special world where they do share that connection. and then back into their ordinary world where they are alone again.....
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Pick a movie, make a post like mine, get a discussion going. :)
siraj said:
i should watch this again though. i'm also interested in forming or joining a group that does what we are doing now... but on a regular basis... is there something like that on this website?
Click to expand...
 
A friend had loaned me the two movies a few months back which I mistakingly took Before Sunset to be the first one of the two. With that I will forever favor that to Before Sunrise (1995) on the context of "I saw that first". In my head when watching Before Sunset I was already imagining what happened in the previous film.

I think subtly the films do follow a general 3 act structure. I'm basing this on memory of Before Sunset purely as a film that can stand on it's own and using the Screenwriter's Master Chart by Mary Shomon as reference.


Act I

Jesse is introduced as a now well-established novel, whom of which this story (he fails to hide) is more or less autobiographical.

Paris is the last stop of his book tour, which he later reveals was purposefully intended to be so.

Here the CENTRAL QUESTION POINT is established through the book interview, of whether the two characters in the book get together in the end.

Celine shows up, but he has a plane to catch, the constraint here is time, and throughout the movie I find myself more and more tense in where time (or the lack of) is in relation to the depth of their conversation/ affection. This in essence for me, is where the drama and action lies.

He bargains for time to talk to her before the flight, opening up for NEW OPPORTUNITY. This leads to them introducing themselves to each other, with the objective of hanging out at a cafe before Jesse has to leave for his flight. (CHOICE OF NEW PATH)

Act II

At the end of their time at the cafe, Jesse (who has to return to his flight) CHANGES HIS PLANS and opts for a longer route back to where his transport is. Here we can see that Jesse is pressing for more time with Celine.

They converse (PROGRESS) even more, this time more about their past. Some conflicts, in particular regarding a major point in the previous film where they had sex (twice), where Celine adamantly denies.

MOVING FORWARD METAPHOR
My memory is failing me at the point of Jesse and Celine in the boat but if I'm not wrong it's the point where they talk about the Citadel or something.

POINT OF NO RETURN
In the car to Celine's home, she breaks down, and confesses about all her troubles regarding love, her boyfriend and that she does remember the night they spent together.

POST POINT MOMENT
Jesse reveals to Celine his troubles as well, his failed marriage and about the time when he was getting married, he swore he saw Celine. Which indeed was her.

​



Throughout the film the theme of lost opportunity and obstacles that prevent the goal from being accomplished is present through their conversation.

EDIT: On writing I realize that I cannot see an Act III, the more I ponder the more I want to say this has a two act structure (i don't know if there is one, maybe i can invent it!) since the action is through their conversation, and their conversation is about their past. Which in itself, deviates from most films and act structures already since they do not show what is happening, but tells what has happened.

I think that although the elements of Act III is not set up visually in the film, it is conveyed directly to the audience through the cumulation of initial truths in their earlier conversations to the revelation of greater truths in the later conversations. There is however, a definite climax and - in Celine's house.


COMPLICATIONS AND HIGHER STAKES + ACT III CLIMAX
At Celine's house, it has come to a breaking point where Jesse absolutely has to return to catch his flight vs Celine's Waltz personalized for Jesse.

DENOUNCEMENT
Back to square one to the 3 Journalists asking about the end of the book. (Mental block, I can't think of the term used for this. Help?)

​


Given more time I would like to explore the presumably two act structure mechanics of this film, however inexperienced I am at screenplays.
 
Kyle I actually liked denouncement for an ending. Might as well do it before the critics get to it ;)

actually I was being a little nit-picky.........sorry.
 
Am I misremembering the movie? I could swear it ends moments after "Baby, you are gonna miss that plane". The denouement is implied in that line, but unseen.
 
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