Beach Wedding - ocean behind bride and groom - Audio solutions?

hasselblad

hasselblad

Well-known member
Hi!

I am shooting a wedding right on the beach 10 feet from the ocean. This means wind noise and noise coming from the ocean waves.

I have used lavalier sennheiser mics and handheld sennheiser mic system in the past but I am not thrilled by the quality. It is good but nothing similar to Hollywood movie quality... :)

How can I achieve excellent quality similar to movies? Do I need to use a boom with a Sennheiser 416 shotgun mic? I would love to but it is a wedding. It just doesn't look good on the photos.... and would look weird during the ceremony.

I was thinking to point the Sennheiser mkh 416 on the bride and groom while they are speaking but I am afraid the shotgun mic picking up the noise of the ocean behind them. I LOVE the quality of the sound coming from the Sennheiser shotgun mics but I am not sure how to position the mic so it doesn't pick up any wave noise from the ocean....

ANY suggestions?

Any help greatly appreciated!!!
 
Lav audio quality is highly dependent upon proper placement, which is an art in itself. Also the pickup pattern of the lav mic will play a big role in how much of the surf noise is canceled out. The voice being the 'signal' and the surf sound being the 'noise', the signal-to-noise ratio is going to be much better the closer the mic is to the speaker's mouth. (Which is true with a boom mic as well as a lav.)

There are so many variables here, including wind (it seems there is always wind at the ocean). Your best bet is to take a couple of friends and go to the location for some audio tests. Weddings on the beach are definitely a challenge. But not an insurmountable one.
 
David W. Richardson said:
Lav audio quality is highly dependent upon proper placement, which is an art in itself. Also the pickup pattern of the lav mic will play a big role in how much of the surf noise is canceled out. The voice being the 'signal' and the surf sound being the 'noise', the signal-to-noise ratio is going to be much better the closer the mic is to the speaker's mouth. (Which is true with a boom mic as well as a lav.)

There are so many variables here, including wind (it seems there is always wind at the ocean). Your best bet is to take a couple of friends and go to the location for some audio tests. Weddings on the beach are definitely a challenge. But not an insurmountable one.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much!!!
 
I think you're approaching the challenge the wrong way. I wouldn't even think about using a shotgun for reliable audio at an uncontrolled event like a wedding. It's all about microphone placement. You need something that is fail-safe and relatively non-intrusive that can get as close to the bride, groom, and officiant's mouths as possible. I've done half a dozen beach weddings. I use a Zoom H1 and $20 phantom powered lavalier microphone from Amazon on both the groom and officiant. Make sure the lavaliers have a windscreen. It's never failed me. A really great set-up for 250 bones.
 
ASchear's advice is golden. PROXIMITY is the only way to pull a decent signal out of broad-band noise (surf+wind). You can roll off the low frequencies to get rid of pounding surf noise, but uncorrelated broadband wind noise is nearly impossible to eliminate (or significantly reduce) after the fact.
 
ASchear said:
I think you're approaching the challenge the wrong way. I wouldn't even think about using a shotgun for reliable audio at an uncontrolled event like a wedding. It's all about microphone placement. You need something that is fail-safe and relatively non-intrusive that can get as close to the bride, groom, and officiant's mouths as possible. I've done half a dozen beach weddings. I use a Zoom H1 and $20 phantom powered lavalier microphone from Amazon on both the groom and officiant. Make sure the lavaliers have a windscreen. It's never failed me. A really great set-up for 250 bones.
Click to expand...

EXCEPT for the problem of not being able to monitor the sound during the ceremony. Sure, it works most of the time. But it's not impossible that the groom will bump it in some way as to either stop the recording or knock the mic jack loose from the plug just enough to introduce static and distortion. Or the batteries could die (or be bad). It's a good solution for a great many things, but remember this -- a wedding is a once-in-a-lifetime event. If you screw it up, you've ruined the only video they will have of the only wedding (hopefully) they will ever have. You have to do EVERYTHING you can to make SURE you're getting good, clean sound.

And redundancy is everything. Don't rely strictly on a single device for your sound. Want to use the Zoom H1 in the pocket with a lav? Okay. Use TWO of them. With TWO mics. Maybe put one on the officiant, if he/she will allow it. Find a place where you can sneak a good mic in close to the couple without it being obtrusive, and run that to a wireless that you can monitor. And always run sound on every camera there. You never know what you may have to use.
 
As a former still photographer who has shot weddings and portraits on the beach, I would think that the bride and groom would want some ambient sound of ocean waves in the background. If possible you may want to prerecord the sound of waves hitting the beach and include the these sounds in post. The big problem is wind noise. A high quality wind sock on whatever directional mic(s) you select is a must.
 
nutmegger said:
As a former still photographer who has shot weddings and portraits on the beach, I would think that the bride and groom would want some ambient sound of ocean waves in the background. If possible you may want to prerecord the sound of waves hitting the beach and include the these sounds in post. The big problem is wind noise. A high quality wind sock on whatever directional mic(s) you select is a must.
Click to expand...

Anyone who has attempted to record dialog on the beach can assure you that hasselblad will have absolutely no lack of "ambient sound of ocean waves". The issue is KEEPING them in the BACKGROUND vs. overwhelming the dialog.
 
David W. Richardson said:
EXCEPT for the problem of not being able to monitor the sound during the ceremony. Sure, it works most of the time. But it's not impossible that the groom will bump it in some way as to either stop the recording or knock the mic jack loose from the plug just enough to introduce static and distortion. Or the batteries could die (or be bad). It's a good solution for a great many things, but remember this -- a wedding is a once-in-a-lifetime event. If you screw it up, you've ruined the only video they will have of the only wedding (hopefully) they will ever have. You have to do EVERYTHING you can to make SURE you're getting good, clean sound.

And redundancy is everything. Don't rely strictly on a single device for your sound. Want to use the Zoom H1 in the pocket with a lav? Okay. Use TWO of them. With TWO mics. Maybe put one on the officiant, if he/she will allow it. Find a place where you can sneak a good mic in close to the couple without it being obtrusive, and run that to a wireless that you can monitor. And always run sound on every camera there. You never know what you may have to use.
Click to expand...

I completely agree that redundancy is everything, and therefore I do (ha) place another microphone on the officiant as I mentioned. As far as your other points though - I disagree. Here's why:

Regardless of whether or not you can monitor your sound, the only control you might have over it during a wedding ceremony is changing the levels if you're using a wireless device. That is the absolute single advantage. My solution to this is to just give yourself ample headroom so you peak at -12dB in case someone laughs or yells unexpectedly. Or just use auto level! All of the other issues - knocking the mic jack loose, dud batteries, etc can happen on both wired and wireless systems. At least in a non-wireless device, you won't have that sour feeling in the pit of your stomach if one of those happens and you know about it! You can't stop the ceremony, after all.

All you can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Use reliable rechargeable AA batteries in the H1 recorder. Put the recorder on "HOLD" mode so that no buttons can be pressed. Ensure that the microphone 1/8" plug is a snug connection and tape it if not. Purchase professional quality micro SD cards to give you the best chances of not having a card failure. And of course, as you mentioned - be redundant. Mic up the groom AND priest; AND use a third recorder in the vicinity of a mic amp or lectern. I've done over 30 weddings the past 2 years and have used this system from the beginning. I think there is no question it's the best solution.
 
ASchear said:
... the only control you might have over it during a wedding ceremony is changing the levels if you're using a wireless device. That is the absolute single advantage. ..
Click to expand...
No, that is not true at all. Here is a quick summary...

[TABLE="class: cms_table_grid, width: 800, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD]Option[/TD]
[TD]Advantages[/TD]
[TD]Disadvantages[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Camera Mic[/TD]
[TD]* Built-in[/TD]
[TD]* Too far away from sound
* Too close to camera noise
* Too close to operator noise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Boom or lav or hand mic
Hard-Wired to Camcorder[/TD]
[TD]* Least things to go wrong
* Likely lowest-cost
* Ability to monitor while recording[/TD]
[TD]* Many camcorder mic preamps low quality
* Low-end camcorders unbalanced input
* Low-end camcorders permanent auto-level[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Boom or lav or hand mic
Hard-wired to audio recorder[/TD]
[TD]* Most advantages above plus...
* Probably higher quality than camcorder
* Probably XLR mic inputs
* More flexibility for camera/audio location[/TD]
[TD]* Extra equipment, more hassle
* Requires separate crew for best results
* Separate sound file to download and track
* Requires audio/video sync in editing[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wireless to camcorder
or audio recorder[/TD]
[TD]* No cables, freedom of movement
* Ability to monitor while recording[/TD]
[TD]* Decent RF at least $500-600 minimum
* Location ambient RF interference
* Cast/crew cell phone interference[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]On-talent recorder
(of any type)[/TD]
[TD]* No cables, freedom of movement[/TD]
[TD]* UNABLE TO MONITOR WHILE RECORDING
* Extra equipment, remember start/stop
* Separate sound file to download and track
* Requires audio/video sync in editing[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Using talent's own
recorder/iPhone, etc.[/TD]
[TD]* No cables, freedom of movement
* No extra recorder cost[/TD]
[TD]* UNABLE TO MONITOR WHILE RECORDING
* Probably extra cost of adapters, etc.
* Must install recorder app on device
* Extra equipment, remember start/stop
* Must get recorded file off device :Drogar-Mad(DBG):
* Separate sound file to download and track
* Requires audio/video sync in editing[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
hasselblad said:
How can I achieve excellent quality similar to movies?
Click to expand...

You can't. In these circumstances filmmakers almost always replace the dialog with ADR.

The best you can do is pray for a very calm ocean with zero wind.

I also agree that 1.) proximity is your best bet and 2.) lav placement is an art form.
 
Richard Crowley said:
No, that is not true at all. Here is a quick summary...
Click to expand...

That's a great summary and all...but please enlighten me -

What other advantage, aside from being able to adjust the levels, would a wireless (and therefore monitored) system offer over a hard-wired (and therefore unmonitored) system? Keep in mind that we're talking about during a wedding ceremony. If there's something I'm unaware of, then it might be beneficial for me to switch from my current system to a more suitable one.
 
David W. Richardson said:
Lav audio quality is highly dependent upon proper placement, which is an art in itself. Also the pickup pattern of the lav mic will play a big role in how much of the surf noise is canceled out. The voice being the 'signal' and the surf sound being the 'noise', the signal-to-noise ratio is going to be much better the closer the mic is to the speaker's mouth. (Which is true with a boom mic as well as a lav.)

There are so many variables here, including wind (it seems there is always wind at the ocean). Your best bet is to take a couple of friends and go to the location for some audio tests. Weddings on the beach are definitely a challenge. But not an insurmountable one.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much!

I am going to take my family to the beach today to do some testing. How can I learn the art of placing a lavs in a proper way?
 
ASchear said:
I think you're approaching the challenge the wrong way. I wouldn't even think about using a shotgun for reliable audio at an uncontrolled event like a wedding. It's all about microphone placement. You need something that is fail-safe and relatively non-intrusive that can get as close to the bride, groom, and officiant's mouths as possible. I've done half a dozen beach weddings. I use a Zoom H1 and $20 phantom powered lavalier microphone from Amazon on both the groom and officiant. Make sure the lavaliers have a windscreen. It's never failed me. A really great set-up for 250 bones.
Click to expand...

Thanks soooo much!
 
David W. Richardson said:
EXCEPT for the problem of not being able to monitor the sound during the ceremony. Sure, it works most of the time. But it's not impossible that the groom will bump it in some way as to either stop the recording or knock the mic jack loose from the plug just enough to introduce static and distortion. Or the batteries could die (or be bad). It's a good solution for a great many things, but remember this -- a wedding is a once-in-a-lifetime event. If you screw it up, you've ruined the only video they will have of the only wedding (hopefully) they will ever have. You have to do EVERYTHING you can to make SURE you're getting good, clean sound.

And redundancy is everything. Don't rely strictly on a single device for your sound. Want to use the Zoom H1 in the pocket with a lav? Okay. Use TWO of them. With TWO mics. Maybe put one on the officiant, if he/she will allow it. Find a place where you can sneak a good mic in close to the couple without it being obtrusive, and run that to a wireless that you can monitor. And always run sound on every camera there. You never know what you may have to use.
Click to expand...

Yes. I will use the lavs with the Sennhesier trasmitters.
 
nutmegger said:
As a former still photographer who has shot weddings and portraits on the beach, I would think that the bride and groom would want some ambient sound of ocean waves in the background. If possible you may want to prerecord the sound of waves hitting the beach and include the these sounds in post. The big problem is wind noise. A high quality wind sock on whatever directional mic(s) you select is a must.
Click to expand...

Can you recommend a wind sock you like?
 
Richard Crowley said:
Anyone who has attempted to record dialog on the beach can assure you that hasselblad will have absolutely no lack of "ambient sound of ocean waves". The issue is KEEPING them in the BACKGROUND vs. overwhelming the dialog.
Click to expand...

Yes. This is the problem. The background (and wind) noise is too strong and makes the dialog during the wedding ceremony lifeless.
 
ASchear said:
I completely agree that redundancy is everything, and therefore I do (ha) place another microphone on the officiant as I mentioned. As far as your other points though - I disagree. Here's why:

Regardless of whether or not you can monitor your sound, the only control you might have over it during a wedding ceremony is changing the levels if you're using a wireless device. That is the absolute single advantage. My solution to this is to just give yourself ample headroom so you peak at -12dB in case someone laughs or yells unexpectedly. Or just use auto level! All of the other issues - knocking the mic jack loose, dud batteries, etc can happen on both wired and wireless systems. At least in a non-wireless device, you won't have that sour feeling in the pit of your stomach if one of those happens and you know about it! You can't stop the ceremony, after all.

All you can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Use reliable rechargeable AA batteries in the H1 recorder. Put the recorder on "HOLD" mode so that no buttons can be pressed. Ensure that the microphone 1/8" plug is a snug connection and tape it if not. Purchase professional quality micro SD cards to give you the best chances of not having a card failure. And of course, as you mentioned - be redundant. Mic up the groom AND priest; AND use a third recorder in the vicinity of a mic amp or lectern. I've done over 30 weddings the past 2 years and have used this system from the beginning. I think there is no question it's the best solution.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much! Do you have links where I can see the footage? I would like to learn from it.
 
This is very helpful! Thanks sooooo much!

Richard Crowley said:
No, that is not true at all. Here is a quick summary...

[TABLE="class: cms_table_grid, width: 800, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD]Option[/TD]
[TD]Advantages[/TD]
[TD]Disadvantages[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Camera Mic[/TD]
[TD]* Built-in[/TD]
[TD]* Too far away from sound
* Too close to camera noise
* Too close to operator noise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Boom or lav or hand mic
Hard-Wired to Camcorder[/TD]
[TD]* Least things to go wrong
* Likely lowest-cost
* Ability to monitor while recording[/TD]
[TD]* Many camcorder mic preamps low quality
* Low-end camcorders unbalanced input
* Low-end camcorders permanent auto-level[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Boom or lav or hand mic
Hard-wired to audio recorder[/TD]
[TD]* Most advantages above plus...
* Probably higher quality than camcorder
* Probably XLR mic inputs
* More flexibility for camera/audio location[/TD]
[TD]* Extra equipment, more hassle
* Requires separate crew for best results
* Separate sound file to download and track
* Requires audio/video sync in editing[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wireless to camcorder
or audio recorder[/TD]
[TD]* No cables, freedom of movement
* Ability to monitor while recording[/TD]
[TD]* Decent RF at least $500-600 minimum
* Location ambient RF interference
* Cast/crew cell phone interference[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]On-talent recorder
(of any type)[/TD]
[TD]* No cables, freedom of movement[/TD]
[TD]* UNABLE TO MONITOR WHILE RECORDING
* Extra equipment, remember start/stop
* Separate sound file to download and track
* Requires audio/video sync in editing[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Using talent's own
recorder/iPhone, etc.[/TD]
[TD]* No cables, freedom of movement
* No extra recorder cost[/TD]
[TD]* UNABLE TO MONITOR WHILE RECORDING
* Probably extra cost of adapters, etc.
* Must install recorder app on device
* Extra equipment, remember start/stop
* Must get recorded file off device :Drogar-Mad(DBG):
* Separate sound file to download and track
* Requires audio/video sync in editing[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
 
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