Audio Tutorial Thread

lpcvideo1 said:
This is a great thread, Jeremy. I'm considering a move up from the AT897, and your documenting your experience is exactly the kind of thing I think we need more of. I particularly appreciated the comments about "forgiveness" issues with the 416. Never would have thought of that issue, and the boom operators I seem to get can barely point in one direction with their finger.

I'm leaning towards the 4073a.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Like I said, if my experience helps one person with the purchase of a microphone then it was time well spent writing that marathon post. I didn't mean to imply that the AT4073a is as good as the MKH-416, it is not. A lot of the features that the 416 has, such as that tight pattern, are the reasons that people love it. Oleg I know has had certain 416's for 20+ years while the AT4073a doesn't have that sort of history so it is impossible to know how long these will last (I haven't had any problems with mine yet though). I think that you will be very pleased with the results you will get from the mic, and regarding the forgiveness some people would actually consider this to be a selling point of the 416 and a downside of teh 4073a. For people who are not professional sound people though and are more into just getting the best sound possible the 4073a provides that flexibility that is priceless and ensures good results. I didn't mean to imply that the 4073a sounds like the 416 though, it doesn't, but it is the closest I have heard yet (then again I haven't tried any Sanken, Schoeps, or Beyerdynamic microphones yet). I think that you will be very pleased with the results. It was hard for my to sell that 416, I had waited a month saving up the cash and drooling over it in the EVS catalog. I read about it all the time and the day I got it I was thrilled and recorded about ten hours of audio using it. It was incredible, but it was tight. After trying it on a short film project I couldn't get good sound unless it was pointed right at my target. At first I kept saying "this is so cool" but then I got frustrated. I thought that there had to be something wrong with the mic, but that is just what a true professional mic does. You get what you pay for and that is an awesome feature, for a professional sound person. I'm not. Sometimes I will use the focus assist to help me pin point and sometimes I want a little flexibility with my mic placement. There is no substitute for quality, but I need that forgiveness.

I think that the 416 is an awesome microphone, but it is just not for me. I hope this makes sense, I'm not bashing it, I just don't need something like that.

Either way, you will move lightyears beyond your AT897, right away you should do a quick A/B comparison and just hear the difference. You will be blown away by the fullness of the sound that you hear and how it just completes everything. You will really love that mic. Best of luck and I'm happy that I was able to help you.

I think I'm going to do my next little tutorial on music and free resources for them. I actually have 'professional experience' with that, so I'll have to see what I can come up with. These are kind of fun to write.
 
In a previous life (college days) I started out as a music major. I had fallen in love with the whole party scene and purchased a Roland TR-909 analogue drum machine and quickly spent all of my Stafford Loan money building up this studio. I was able to actually travel to a couple of places and do live performances (they weren't ever live, just midi sequences with things added on top of them), but over the course of those three years I cut a couple of 12" albums and got to see all sorts of places. I also learned a ton of studio music creation. In continuing this thread I thought I would try to offer some solutions to an area that I think gets neglected by amateur filmmakers, music.

A couple of months ago there was a lot of interest over a NYTimes article pointing to the rising cost of music licensing. There are certain songs (like born to be wild) that seem to be in every picture, and you can just imagine how the artists and labels who have their songs in everything just sit back and laugh at these massive licensing checks they receive. A lot of people think that they need to raise at least $20,000 just to get the most basic of music for their projects (I wanted to license Bonnie Tyler's 'Heaven is a Place on Earth' and almost died at the thought of paying $10,000 for festival rights), so I thought I could take some of my experience and offer several alternatives to paying money for licensed music.

1. Networking Online - I spend at least 2 hours a week just checking out bands and artists online because I'm curious as to what has been created. If I like a bands sound I always email them my comments and words of support. From someone who used to write music it is one of those things that takes a few moments to do, but yet actually has a nice impact on the people receiving it (a la: Karma!). From doing this I have made a couple of net friends and actually have a number of people who are unsigned but have offered to let me use their music in my projects for free (as long as they are granted proper credit). This is a great way of supporting other artists and rather than moving from a position of greed and selfishness just networking and looking at ways for everyone involved to win. Online networking also goes beyond the simple band sites as there are a ton of electronic musicians who produce exclusively with software and post their creations. These people are normally extremely enthusiastic to see their work featured in a film project. I just believe that if you are doing an independent production why not keep the whole project independent? Either way, networking and just being out there is a great thing to do.

2. Local Networking - Two to three nights a week I like to go out and see a local band. I think that local art is extremely important and if you don't show your support for it, then it will disappear. I live in Charlotte, NC a place where the city government tried to pull funding for a local play performance of 'Angels in America' because of the gay themes. Government and politics aside, the communinity needs to show support in order to receive the art and entertainment they want. Networking with local bands is actually easier than anything else because I have made some great friends in the process and normally can give them an idea of the sort of sound that I am looking for. One of the best examples I can think of is John Lyon's 'Hunting Camp'. He has an amazing soundtrack to that film, and I believe he did it 100% by networking with the artists. There is not much difference between this and the online trolling option, but I prefer to go out because then I get a warm fuzzy like I'm helping a band. Also, this has a back end benefit, the band will help you promote your project because they are getting promotion from it. It is win win back scratching.

3. Create it yourself. This is really what I wanted to focus my tutorial on, the different methods that are available for people to be able to move forward and write their own music for no money. There are several pieces of software that are excellent: Reason, Acid, and Fruity Loops. These have been discussed extensively, and I recommend checking them out because some truly amazing creations can be created with these software packages. There is also the VST soft synth options that can be integrated with programs such as Cubase. VST soft synths are essentially software plugins that mimic their full-sized external brethren. For Cubase there are tons of offerings from samplers, analog-esque synthesizers, drum machines, bass generators, and everything in between. There are tons of options to create music right on the computer without any external hardware needed (although a midi keyboard is always useful).

The option that I wanted to discuss though is something that over the last couple of years has become even less well known, but is extremely powerful and can yield some great results and entertainment. The age old art of tracking. Tracking is using a piece of software called a Tracker which essentially combines a sampler with a sequencer. Examples of trackers include Fast Tracker, Impulse Tracker, and Modplug Tracker (there are others, but I have used Modplug in recent years because it is Windows based and has a nice GUI). All you do is load in your specific samples and then lay out your pattern in the tracker with complete control over pitch and key. I used to compose complete tracks in a tracker, but now prefer to lay my Acid Loops out in there.

One of the best benefits of using a tracker is that there is an entire library of wav samples available online for you to download, in addition to instrument files that can be loaded into the tracker. At first this simple tool seems almost pointless, but actually is extremely powerful.

The end result is that it is possible to create your own music if you have the energy, willingness, and gusto to go out and do it. If anyone is interested I would be more than willing to post a selection of samples as well as a tracker on my site for people to download in case you want to experiment with this tool. I personally like it a lot and find that it provides incredible results.

4. Finally there are web sources where you can license music for very little money or for free. This has been well discussed on this board in the past, so please run a search. My idea behind this post though was to encourage community or creativity by networking with others (filmmaking being a collabrative artform) or through personal creation.

Well hopefully someone finds some use out of this post. I will try to post a download link this evening for anyone interested in a collection of samples and a tracker.

Take care, have fun, and happy creation!

-Jeremy
 
Good info on shotguns Yank.

As much as you and Matt profess to not being audio professionals, you both have insights that some of us working professionals do not. I have played with some of the lower end mics but do not have the level of experience with them that you guys do. Since many of the posters in here are looking for info on the middle range mics/equipment your experiences are even more valuable to them then those of us who do not have any significant experience with that equipment.

Have no doubt that if I'm ever in North Carolina or Missiouri I will gladly hire you guys for a sound crew. :thumbsup:

Best
 
I never noticed more recent posts. Great perspective and advice about music from the internet. I think I'll buy the world a Coke!

Good stuff, Yankee. Keep 'em coming.
 
So 416's and AKG ULS are low end mics now? Jeez... what's a good mic?:undecided

Hey I have been reading this thread and enjoying it much more then my posts suggest. I had to throw that out there Wabbit.:cheesy: I know it's not like we're using SD422's and stuff like that but I'd say the Yank is getting a pretty good handle on mics outside of the low-end too. A thousand bucks for a mic is getting pretty serious!

Believe it or not I don't automatically use the most expensive mic I have on any particular shoot. I still love the little Oktavas even though I have options at 5 times the price.

It's very satisfying to get a great result using fairly common tools.:thumbsup:
 
After upgrading to the 416 and then downgrading (or for my uses upgrading) to the 4073a I have been through almost every shotgun in the >$1000 department. I forgot to include my impressions on the Azden, but having only used two of them for no more than a simple A/B with an 897 it will be far from a glowing review.

I think in general what Wabbit was saying was that the majority of the microphones I listed are the low end (the exceptions being the 416, Ck, & 4073a). I don't disagree with this. Once you the 4073a entered into the picture it was a whole new world to me (and I bought this upon your suggestion Matt!).

At this point my microphone kit is pretty much established for the time being and I'm happy with it, and have no intentions of adding anything else for a while. I am currently using an Oktava MK012, AKG SE300b, AKG CK98, AKG CK93, AT4073a, and an AT815. For internal dialogue I normally turn to my AKG if when I am editing there will have music associate with it, and if it is pure dialogue I like the added body of the Oktava. It gives a fatter warmer sound that sounds better to my ears.

For shotguns I am normally using my AT4073a now for most uses as I love the sound, but in camera mounted situations I prefer the AKG. The 4073a is perfect on a pole, and the AKG sounds good on a pole, but I'm always so afraid of how delicate it looks. The 815 for me is in any situation where something can get broken and I don't want to risk the 4073a or for really noisey situations where I want that ENG live at five sound. The 815 is a piece of **** mic (mine is something close to a decade old, beat up, but still sounds perfect, ugly as hell though), but it serves a vital purpose in crafting a sound.

So that's my kit and how I use it. At this point my gear lust for microphone equipement has sort of died down and I'm most interested in portable mixers and maybe adding quality wireless units. A hardwired lav mic would also be useful but right now it is not something that I am finding that I 'need'. I am getting great sound and results with my current kit, so yeah, to quote Forest Gump: 'That's all I've got to say about that."
 
i think to simply and sum it up for people who are just buying their first mic...

for the money you would have a hard time going wrong with a sennheiser me-66

if you could only have one mic many would argue that the me-66 would be the best choice.

moving on from that...

the sennheiser 416 is a wonderful mic. just around $1,000

the oktava 012 is about tied with the 416 except they are two totally different types of mics.

the 416 is great if you need a true shotgun and you are aware of the extra sounds your going to get if you use it in a smallish space.

the 416 is best used outdoor and/or with a very experienced boom operator. it has a very focused point where it captures sound from. if you deviate much at all from that point you won't get great sound.

for indoor stuff the oktava is hard to beat.

but with all three of these mics there is one thing to remember above everything else, keep the mic close to the persons mouth. 1-2 feet.

read the two books by jay rosen and you'll be in good shape.

matthew
 
It's a beautiful Thursday in a short work week and I thought I would try to go back to this thread to address a topic that has been well discussed but will always be ignored.

In my original post I begged, pleaded, and borderlined demanded that for any projects worth their weight in spit to hire a sound professional. The reasons for this are numerous, and if you have any doubt as to the reasons I believe I make a rather compelling argument (just hit first at the top of this page).

What I thought I would implement into this thread is what I am calling 'audio survival kit'. I know that there are tons of threads going on about what mic should I buy, what is the best wind protection, yada yada yada. So... it hit me, I am going to give the advice here that I give when people PM me and ask this very question.

Note: I am not a professional, I just like sound, so this is not going to be a kit trying to build the perfect location sound kit, this is simply a thread that will go ahead and get you set up with a minimal cheap kit that will perform beyond your expectations.


Here is what I would recommend for anyone looking to purchase a kit for documentary or narrative projects under normal uses (Normal Uses - indoor and outdoor environments with average wind, tempeture, and amateur sound people [friends] working the sound rig).

1x - Oktava MK012 with hyper cardiod cap from www.sound-room.com ($179)
1x - Rycote Softie for Oktava from www.bhphoto.com ($99)
1x - AT4073a from www.bhphoto.com ($500)
1x - Rycote Softie for 4073a from www.bhphoto.com ($99)
1x - K-Tek KSSM Shockmount from www.locationsound.com ($100)
1x 15-19" XLR Microphone Cable ($25)
1x 20' XLR Microphone Cable ($75)
1x Gitzo 12' Carbon Fiber Boompole from www.evsonline.com ($259)
1x Sond 7506 Heaphones from www.americanmusical.com ($99)

OK, so now I know that some people have read my minimal list and have either complained that it is too minimalistic (you need two sets of headphones, a mixer, an external recorder, ect.) or that people have read it and done the math and figured out that it would cost about $1450 to put something like this together. I want to address both comments separately.

First, to the people who say that this kit is incomplete. True, but in defense of the above recommendations, it is a minimalistic approach to sound, enabling the user to shoot in both internal and external locations while building a solid equipment foundation that can be built upon. Furthermore, I believe that the above kit is ready to go to achieve ideal sound. There are things that can be added in the future to enrich the sound kit, but this is an excellent first step.

Now, to the people who say that this is more than they can spend. I want to address this specifically for the users here on DVXUser. If you can buy a $3500 camera and sound is 75% of the experience then you should really be looking to spend $11, 500 on sound gear (mathematically it makes perfect sense). The number one rule is that bad sound will ruin a good film, and contrary to popular belief, the phrase, we'll fix it in post, is generally a bad idea when it comes to sound (if you doubt it, ask anyone who has recorded sound with a lot of reverb).

I do understand that some people may not be able to come up with an additional $1500 after buying a camera, so I have put together this kit for you. I do not believe this is as good, but it is a great way to save some money:

1x - Oktava MK012 with hyper cardiod cap from www.sound-room.com ($179)
1x - Winscreen for Oktava from www.sound-room.com ($50)
1x - Rode NTG2 Shotgun, cable, & shockmount from www.bhphoto.com ($250)
1x - Rycote Softie for NTG2from www.bhphoto.com ($99)
1x - Sound-Room Shockmount from www.sound-room.com ($50)
1x 20' XLR Microphone Cable ($75)
1x Gitzo 12' Aluminum boompole from www.evsonline.com ($159)
1x Sond 7506 Heaphones from www.americanmusical.com ($99)

As you can see, the total price for this package falls from $1450 to $1000. The money saved, while a lot of money, will be heard in what you record. The additional money spent on better wind protection, microphones, wind protection, and support are significant. In my opinion this is the most minimal package that will provide acceptable sound, and still provides a good starting point for most people.

Now, what if that isn't going to work for your budget? What do you cut out then? I only want to address this question because I know someone will see the $1000 price tag and think that is way too much. This is where things get complicated and sacrifices need to be made. I know there will be at least someone who will ask this question, so here we go, Jeremy's most minimal sound package:

1x Oktava MK012 Microphone with Hyper Cardiod Cap from www.sound-room.com ($179)
1x Oktava Wind Screen from www.sound-room.com ($50)
1x Sound Room Microphone Shockmount ($50)
1x Cheap XLR microphone cable $10 from www.ebay.com
1x Painters Pole from www.homedepot.com ($30)
1x American DJ headphones 1207 from www.americanmusical.com ($25)

That's it. The cheapest kid possible. The problem with going this route is that you have spent $75 on gear that you cannot upgrade or use again. You are getting away with a $350 kit, but a couple of things to consider:
1. Painters Pole - Big problems here. Painters poles are plastic and plastic conveys a ton of shock and noise. What this will mean for your productions is that any movement on the pole will be conveyed to the microphone regardless of shock mount protection used
2. Cheap Cable - Perhaps the most overlooked area, I would say that cables are as important as the microphone you use. Simple rule, the better the cable the cleaner the sound. Cheap cables, and I have used a ton of them, add noise to the signal, distort, and break very easy. I have also had cheap cable snap in microphones, and unless you've ever had to try to unplug an XLR pin you don't know what true frustration with sound is.
3. Cheap Headphones - pure and simple, you will have no reference. With a camera like the DVX100A you need a headphone with a large driver that will transmit a clean signal, otherwise you will get a muddy sound that you cannot sort from the original recording.

The Oktava gear is good in this kit, but as a word to the wise, I have used my Oktava outdoors and have gotten good results. The reason most people use a shotgun outdoors is for the pattern and the tightness of it, versus the openness of the hyper cardiod. This is meant as a survival kit, not the written word of how to record sound.

I do believe though, when it comes down to shotgun or hyper cardiod, turn to the hyper first in 99 out of 100 times because if you can get it close enough, you will get better sound (with proper wind protection).

Now my disclaimer. This is all opinion from my experience as a nonprofessional. I share this information freely with anyone willing to take the time to read my rantings and sort the truth from the hyperbole because I hope that my experience might either help someone get better sound, help someone avoid the costly and expensive mistakes that I have made in the past trying to get better sound, to repay back all the great information I have gained from reading this site for a long time before I even started to post, and most importantly, to avoid having to answer questions once a week.

If you liked what you read here, great, pass it along to someone the next time they ask a question. If you hated what you read here, OK, tell me, I'm just trying to help.

Happy shooting people!

-Jeremy
 
TheYankee said:
1x - Oktava MK012 with hyper cardiod cap from www.sound-room.com ($179)
1x - Rycote Softie for Oktava from www.bhphoto.com ($99)
1x - AT4073a from www.bhphoto.com ($500)
1x - Rycote Softie for 4073a from www.bhphoto.com ($99)
1x - K-Tek KSSM Shockmount from www.locationsound.com ($100)
1x 15-19" XLR Microphone Cable ($25)
1x 20' XLR Microphone Cable ($75)
1x Gitzo 12' Carbon Fiber Boompole from www.evsonline.com ($259)
1x Sond 7506 Heaphones from www.americanmusical.com ($99)
Click to expand...

People sitting quietly in awe as your production credits roll . . . priceless.
 
Anybody have experience with Sanken CS-1 and CS-3?

Anybody want to give a discussion about lavalier mics?
 
Hey Yankee:

Thanks for a terrific and informative post.

I don't know too much about mics and audio... and dread asking newbie type questions (read the threads, dammt... do a search.... etc.).

Now I can start on an audio package that's actually good and well priced, without worrying I've bought junk.

My question to Rush at EVS is, as I have ordered an HVX200 through him is:

Can you get the Oktava mk012 hyper (at similiar price) for me, or should I order from Soundroom?
 
www.sound-room.com is the only place you can get an Oktava in the US and have it be a genuine Russian version...

Rush can get you the Audio Technica 4073a, the shockmount, wind protection, boompole, and cable though.
 
B&H doesn't sell Oktava.

There are at least 3 options which will get you a genuine Oktava mic.

www.oktava-online.com
www.oktavausa.com
www.sound-room.com

The Sound Room is the only one who will sell you the 1 cap kit with the Hyper cap, which is the one you want... and the price is $165 for DVXuser members. Paul set up these 1-cap Hyper kits after I talked to him about the value in it, and he's the only one who did this. I like their store because they show a genuine interest in their customers and they gave us an extra 5% off of their price which is already the lowest in the USA.

I don't know the import/customs situation for South Africa, but Oktava-Online is in Europe.
 
www.oktava-online.com will also sell you the 1 cap kit with the Hyper cap for 127 euros. They even sell the hyper capsule alone for 49 euros and stereo matched pairs with the hyper cap instead of the cardioid.

Note the above prices include German VAT (sales tax) at 17%.
Anyone who is VAT registered in Europe or is based outside the EC should be entitled to an additional 17% discount on the sale price.

Shipping to the US is 22,55 € by registered mail.

Lutnik
 
That's a good deal, but you're looking at about $160 USD after the conversion... so that's only about $10 better then Sound Room for the total price.

I'd say if you're in Europe then that would be your best bet... but it seems like a lot of risk (to save only $10) for the USA.

I based that total price on XE.com's currency conversion including the 17% price-break... and for the record, I get a lot of stuff from RVA Canada... and so far XE.com is ALWAYS at least $10 low anyway.

I'm going to send an email to oktava-online and see if they can give me a total price including shipping. It may actually end up costing more by a few bucks. :huh:
 
Great thread. Great thread.

Can someone PLEASE make a .pdf out of this thing? Something downloadable and print friendly?


My own small piece of advice: Great mics and setups get great sound. Those more versed in that area have already layed down great info here. But, also important is how it is used to compliment your work. What is great sound without great implementation?

With that thought, I recommend this site: http://www.filmsound.org/
 
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