audio to Mini?

F

filmmaker1977

Carbonite Member
these posts came from another thread where they already were quite off-topic:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=59069&page=6

digest:

Jason Rodriguez said:
Also the only way around the mult-channel aspect is either separate .wav's or Quicktime.

The Video-for-Windows AVI file format doesn't support multi-channel 24/96 audio.
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filmmaker1977 said:
at dv info there is this:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=491427&postcount=26

and i found this:

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/3844

and this:

http://www.nusystems.co.uk/product/Echo.Indigo.IO
http://www.nusystems.co.uk/product/Echo.Indigo.DJ

isn't it 24/96 audio?

and.. Jason, didn't you already posted that quicktime will support 24/96? i'm confused..
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Ari Presler said:
16/48 audio (2 ch) is currently recorded in the AVI file. We also have some nice audio level meters so you can see what's happening. You can use any external device with standard Windows WAV drivers (not ASIO) or use on-board PC HD audio.

24/96 needs ASIO support with recording to QT, since video-for-windows is limited to two channels at 16/48. In order to get embedded 24/96, you will need equipment capable of 24/96 (such as a USB audio device, or on-board HD audio that can record at 24/96).

We still feel the best way to get good 24/96 is to use an external audio recording device and sync it with the camera. We can do that very nicely right now since we have time-of-day timecode, so you can sync everything up using a timecode slate, We will also have LTC syncing in the future, so you can slave the camera's timecode to the audio device if you choose.

(...)

As Jason often states: "Without good pre-amps, 24/96 is overkill . . . you're just digitizing noise and useless bits."
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filmmaker1977 said:
okay but there is who is recording to a laptop..

http://207.36.59.179/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=software;action=display;num=1072074316

what must i need to have it?.. man, i need your camera to doc work.. run & gun to the laptop and it will be enough..

external monitor, external battery, external device a, external device b, and i need a slave just to help with the weight of all this..

forget the hollywood business.. think in sundance as i already read i don't know where and you will have hollywood!

but first think about this: your camera is the most perfect INDIE cam that is available now to us.. sell like it hotcakes if you will get a COMPACT package to the laptop recording..

all the people with who i'm talking about your camera are saying the same..

handheld.. lighter.. easier..

so, please get a laptop solution to 24/96 audio recording and you must thank us our interest..

cheers man.. i like you but not so much as your Mini.. she rocks but with 24/96 audio..
Click to expand...

Ari Presler said:
Are you looking to have support something like this?

UAX220-Mic
[FONT=arial, helvetica]All in one, all in hand [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]
The UAX220-Mic is a professional USB Audio interface for broadcast and other demanding pro audio applications featuring 2/2 balanced analog high-quality I/Os. Under its compact and sleek design, it combines Digigram’s leading edge experience in audio performance with the ease of use of standard USB Audio. With two professional grade mic preamps, the UAX220-Mic is the most efficient Pro Audio interface for portable use.

[/FONT]Get the UAX220-Mic PDF brochure »

[FONT=arial, helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]
Video about UAX220-Mic


True plug-and-play devices, the UAX220-Mic is the perfect solution for use with multiple computers; such as for example a laptop computer on the road and a desktop PC in the newsroom or studio. When connected to the USB port of a computer, the UAX220-Mic is immediately operational: no need for a specific driver or bulky external power supply. Applications
  • Broadcast (newsroom, mobile journalist workstation)
  • Live performance (theatrical playback, special effects, sound system calibration)
  • Recording on location
  • Logging, legal recording, and archiving
  • DJ applications
  • Music production
[/FONT]http://www.digigram.com/products/getinfo.htm?prod_key=13300
Click to expand...
i appreciate your tip.. maybe it will work.. but i need to know if you are talking seriously considering that you are saying 24/96 only as external recording.. preamps stuff and this kind of hassles..

with this sort of gear is it possible quality 24/96? To big screen.. that's where i've been displaying all my indie work..

edit​

24/96 with this USB device? i don't think so:

http://www.digigram.com/faqs/getinfo.htm?o=answer&prod_key=13300&faq_key=706

otherwise as 16/48 will it be acceptable to big screen? are there good preamps?..

or even 24/48? is this possible with this USB device?

i've been watching the video available there, it sounds quite professional...

any thoughts?
 
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Once we have ASIO support, really any audio device with ASIO drivers should work . . . so there are many firewire/USB devices on the market that can do 24/96.
 
On board the camera we will have 24/96 support for two channels of audio in a Quicktime file format. The AVI file format will have 16/48 for two channels of audio.

With ASIO support we will have the capability to support a variety of external USB/Firewire audio devices for multi-channel recording at 24/96 into the Quicktime file format. Because of the limitations of Video For Windows we cannot do this in the AVI file format.

Hope this makes sense.
 
:dankk2: Jason Green!.. and about 24/48, is it possible?




follow me following you:

Jason Rodriguez said:
On board the camera we will have 24/96 support for two channels of audio in a Quicktime file format. The AVI file format will have 16/48 for two channels of audio.
Click to expand...
right!

With ASIO support we will have the capability to support a variety of external USB/Firewire audio devices for multi-channel recording at 24/96 into the Quicktime file format. Because of the limitations of Video For Windows we cannot do this in the AVI file format.
Click to expand...
okay..





1)

about that device above-mentioned, they're saying there's just 48 Khz:
http://www.digigram.com/faqs/getinfo.htm?o=answer&prod_key=13300&faq_key=706

so, IS IT POSSIBLE 24/48?.. but maybe not 24/96 with such device.. is it so? and in this case, can you suggest (like Ari did) other one but with this feature recommended by you please?

interesting info over the subject:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=510635&postcount=10




2)​

do you remember?
as you often states: "Without good pre-amps, 24/96 is overkill . . . you're just digitizing noise and useless bits."

what's your opinion about this:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=491427&postcount=26


conclusion
WITH ASIO support + USB/Firewire devices (like these) with good preamps for multi-channel recording at 24/96 into the Quicktime file format it's possible change the equation: CAN 24/96 BE USELESS?




in coagulated discolor.. :happy: ​
edit


can you explain why here:
http://www.apex-audio.be/images/foto/digigram%20UAX220-Mic.pdf (only now because it wasn't available at the manufacturer website where only exists that FAQ link and where 24-bits isn't mentioned.. why?)

it is saying also 24-bit / 96 Khz A/D and D/A converters resolution?

though sampling frequencies available are up to 48 Khz

what does it mean?..

in audio formats supported it refers again 24-bit besides 16-bit PCM

it means will 24/48 recording be possible now?.. (or maybe not because that suff considering the 16-bits limitation of the video for windows/AVI file format..)

or even will 24/96 be possible? i know when QT will be available.. september right?
 
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I had seen the 24-bit / 96 Khz A/D and D/A converters resolution on the spec too. Not sure why it goes to 48Khz on other part of the spec. You might want to contact Digigram directly. I had pasted in the product as an example USB Audio device (thinking it may ahve had 24/96 support too).

QT is schedule for September (this is driven by Cineform schedule).
 
We will support multiple deivices . . . not just the Digigram but other devices from M-Audio, Edirol, Apogee, Motu, etc. . . . those can do multi-channel 24/96.
 
Jason Rodriguez said:
We will support multiple deivices . . . not just the Digigram but other devices from M-Audio, Edirol, Apogee, Motu, etc. . . . those can do multi-channel 24/96.
Click to expand...
with good pre-amps?.. in order to change your statement but in any other than as 100%: «24/96 is overkill . . . you're just digitizing noise and useless bits» ?
 
Make sure these puppies put out phantom power too if your need it, otherwsie you may need to supply phantom to your mics using another device in addition to the audio interface. Also, IMHO there are big advantages of using 24-bit (more headroom, less quantization errors when mixing and adding effects -- and these things are still true even with crappy preamps), but the doubling of file size from a 48 kHz to a 96 kHz sample rates is much less valuable. Unless your audio is going to be played back on a high-fidelity pro-calibrated monitor, I doubt you could find anyone that could tell the difference between 48 and 96. But, hey, that's just one man's opinion... :)
 
Tainted said:
Make sure these puppies put out phantom power too if your need it, otherwsie you may need to supply phantom to your mics using another device in addition to the audio interface. Also, IMHO there are big advantages of using 24-bit (more headroom, less quantization errors when mixing and adding effects -- and these things are still true even with crappy preamps), but the doubling of file size from a 48 kHz to a 96 kHz sample rates is much less valuable. Unless your audio is going to be played back on a high-fidelity pro-calibrated monitor, I doubt you could find anyone that could tell the difference between 48 and 96. But, hey, that's just one man's opinion... :)
Click to expand...
No it isn't... You gave a valuable contribution to the debate. I have the same opinion but be careful 'cause I'm not a techie!... ;)

I've just been following the discussion...

Concerning what Yuval Shrem posted before, here is his quote:
Yuval Shrem said:
Hi,

I think I can help clarifying the issue...
Here goes:

most Big-Budget film production record their production-Sound (on-location-dialog) on stereo DAT tapes. these record 16bit/48kHz, however, the DAT-Decks are about $6000 machines with superb A/D converters. When using top-quality microphones and pre-amplifiers and then converting to digital with top quality A/D converters, 16bit/48kHz is more than enough for dialog and production-sound in general. The extra bits will not make such a notable difference. (could make a very slight difference though...)
On the contrary, you can get a cheep microphone, connect it a to a cheep pre-amplifier that is likely included in a cheep PCI card with low-end A/D converter that claims to do 24bit/96kHz and guess what? it will sound very bad, and will create files about 4 times bigger, making it much heavier on computer and storage recourses.

Conclusion:

16bit/48kHz with top-notch pre-amps and converters is the industry standard.
24bit/48kHz has a much better dynamic range, therefore is superior.
24bit/96kHz is simply more than you need for production recording.

However, 24/96 should be used as a master delivery format, since it does have advantages for music and sound-effects, and enable a more dynamic and crispier sounding final mix. 24/96 is also the delivery format for DVDs.
Click to expand...
 
Tainted said:
Also, IMHO there are big advantages of using 24-bit (more headroom, less quantization errors when mixing and adding effects -- and these things are still true even with crappy preamps)
Click to expand...

Not entirely right there Tainted. There is no difference in quantization error-- b/c all of the major audio apps (digidesign, cubase, cakewalk, fl studio, etc...) are using at least 32-bit float processing for their mixing/effects, some of them are now using 64-bit float. So even if you record 16 bit, it'll do all the processing in the higher bit depths so as not to accrue quantization error with every step of processing/mixing.

If you stick a plugin into the chain that doesn't support the higher bit depths (old 16bit integer dx plugins) then yes, the software will process it at those lower bit depths. But then that's true regardless of which format you initially recorded in.

So the PROCESSING in the audio app isn't really an issue as far as the recorded bit depth is concerned.

-Kevin
 
filmmaker1977 said:
with good pre-amps?
Click to expand...

Yes, these external USB/Firewire devices need to have good preamps . . . you can see that some of them are rated at over 107db A-weighted, which is very high . . . you can't get that without good pre-amps.
 
hemophilia said:
Not entirely right there Tainted. There is no difference in quantization error-- b/c all of the major audio apps (digidesign, cubase, cakewalk, fl studio, etc...) are using at least 32-bit float processing for their mixing/effects, some of them are now using 64-bit float. So even if you record 16 bit, it'll do all the processing in the higher bit depths so as not to accrue quantization error with every step of processing/mixing.

If you stick a plugin into the chain that doesn't support the higher bit depths (old 16bit integer dx plugins) then yes, the software will process it at those lower bit depths. But then that's true regardless of which format you initially recorded in.

So the PROCESSING in the audio app isn't really an issue as far as the recorded bit depth is concerned.

-Kevin
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hey brazilian.. excellent input.. you're good so you can help here but i didn't understand one word of your post.. or i can say i understand all the english words but not the technical ones.. i mean all besides "16 bit".. what are you saying?.. maybe people like Jason did it but basically this is a filmmaker board.. you're welcome as techie but please moderate your speech to other level okay? :)
 
Jason Rodriguez said:
Yes, these external USB/Firewire devices need to have good preamps . . . you can see that some of them are rated at over 107db A-weighted, which is very high . . . you can't get that without good pre-amps.
Click to expand...
i just didn't understand one point: you're saying that they have good pre-amps already provided or we must to buy any other device to provide good preamps?.. and when you're posting that some of them are rated over 107db which is very high does it mean: have they good preamps included?
 
filmmaker1977 said:
hey brazilian.. excellent input.. you're good so you can help here but i didn't understand one word of your post.. or i can say i understand all the english words but not the technical ones.. i mean all besides "16 bit".. what are you saying?.. maybe people like Jason did it but basically this is a filmmaker board.. you're welcome as techie but please moderate your speech to other level okay? :)
Click to expand...

The non-technical version of it boils down to this:

Higher bit rates than 16/44 (CD-quality) are both theoretically better, and are within the limits of human hearing. HOWEVER-- in practice it's very low on the priority list. The microphone quality, the pre-amp quality, and for film-makers doing uncontrolled production sound (as opposed to studio work) the location noise, distance from talent, wind, etc all have a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more important role than those few extra bits.

Just to reiterate what someone said before-- 16bit @ 44kHz has been the professional industry standard way to record for many years, and no one has complained about the results they got. This is b/c they were using top-notch microphones and pre's and knew how to use them.

Worrying about super-high bit rates whilst using anything but the most top-notch equipment for the rest or the chain is like optimizing high-speed aerodynamics on a beat-up old VW bug that won't go over 35mph anyway. It's like fielding a team of fat, out-of-shape, no-talent footballers and then equipping them with the latest Nike dri-fit wardrobe and expecting them to be better than pros wearing cotton.

-Kevin
 
okay i agree.. who doesn't?.. but the problem is keeping the same.. if i will buy a gear i must have the best deal.. the money isn't growing on trees.. MONEY is a sacred word.. it's not a joke!.. and if i will do my best as customer i must need what's the best my money can afford.. i need to know the details to evaluate how i want to spend my money..

maybe not from the viewpoint of a technical expert.. must i need to be?.. to have money to buy filmmaking gear? i'd like to see a lot of the technical professionals with who i'm working since i left the film school with a script in their hands, to know how to direct the actors, the best shooting to handle.. just to have money again for the next feature.. anybody interested?..
 
The SI-1920 is a *great* deal. IMHO the best deal on the market . . . there is no other camera that can shoot 10-bit RAW data to disk on a simple modern laptop or other suitable machine, with removeable lenses (and removeable lens mounts), and that you can edit the footage in real-time multi-stream (again at 10-bit), all for under $15K. Another product like this simply doesn't exist on the market.
 
hey jason, why this last post?.. i didn't understand why the spamming?

is anybody denying you?

the only request that i made to you (that's why i sent that PM..) is because not all the world is speaking english as you.. you might be know.. your name is spanish..

then, BECAUSE i'm NOT technical expert nor even american/english speaker like the majority of you.. tech experts here.. as future customer i need that you confirm:

if when you're saying those external usb/firewire devices must need good pre-amps like that DIGIGRAM UAX220-mic.. if you're referring their performance with THEIR own pre-amps or if it will take still another external solution outside for to provide quality..

even because i didn't understand if you're saying that DIGIGRAM UAX220-mic has pre-amps included with quality enough for to handle with audio for theatrical release.. or if besides an external USB/Firewire device like DIGIGRAM UAX220-mic, we must need another pre-amps source if we want avoid noise and other hassles stuff like that.. (following your statement above-mentioned by Ari)



please, be specific and don't me answer with apples when i ask for oranges, okay? :)

:dankk2:
 
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