I was an AC in a small film once where there was no clapper. I came in late, and so on the first shoot with sound I see no clapper. After some time we go up to the sound guy (since, as is typical, sound is his problem...) and ask why there's no clapper. Long story short, after that point the classic hand clapping in front of camera was put into full action.
Audio sync issue is the DP's problem - why?
- Thread starter Chris Santucci
- Start date
I was an AC in a small film once where there was no clapper. I came in late, and so on the first shoot with sound I see no clapper. After some time we go up to the sound guy (since, as is typical, sound is his problem...) and ask why there's no clapper. Long story short, after that point the classic hand clapping in front of camera was put into full action.
Chris Santucci
Veteran
Followup:
Sound mixer "voluntarily" gave up all his pay - 3 shoot days worth.
Producer fought a bitter email fight while sharing the koolaid with agency producer who showed herself to be about 20 years behind the times. Agency producer claimed I was the "technical expert" on the crew and hence, was responsible for sound sync issues (along with the AC, DIT, oh and of course the sound mixer - hahaha) even though (as I pointed out) a PM, AP, and producer sat for 3 days and watched the slate not being clapped, witnessed no readout on the slate, but never once questioned anything about it (derp).
I claimed that I had no way to read the sound mixer's mind and that if I knew 100% that he was recording unsuitable audio, why would I not say anything about it?
Producer lied to me about putting the sound mixer I recommended on hold - she never did - I asked him (she claimed he asked to be removed from hold - yet another lie).
Producer paid me 1/2, promised the rest, but after 2 months, ignored letter from my attorney.
I finally got a check in a hurry after the letter from small claims court went out :thumbsup:
Sound mixer "voluntarily" gave up all his pay - 3 shoot days worth.
Producer fought a bitter email fight while sharing the koolaid with agency producer who showed herself to be about 20 years behind the times. Agency producer claimed I was the "technical expert" on the crew and hence, was responsible for sound sync issues (along with the AC, DIT, oh and of course the sound mixer - hahaha) even though (as I pointed out) a PM, AP, and producer sat for 3 days and watched the slate not being clapped, witnessed no readout on the slate, but never once questioned anything about it (derp).
I claimed that I had no way to read the sound mixer's mind and that if I knew 100% that he was recording unsuitable audio, why would I not say anything about it?
Producer lied to me about putting the sound mixer I recommended on hold - she never did - I asked him (she claimed he asked to be removed from hold - yet another lie).
Producer paid me 1/2, promised the rest, but after 2 months, ignored letter from my attorney.
I finally got a check in a hurry after the letter from small claims court went out :thumbsup:
robmneilson
Veteran
Nice, glad to hear that the good guys still do win. What a ridiculous argument on their end.
Ted Spencer
Veteran
Glad to hear you won that battle. I hope a larger one wasn't lost as a consequence...
Just one question sticks in my mind: who made/approved the call *not* to use a clapper board...or even a pair of hands? That would seem to be the problem's 'inciting incident' to use a screenwriter's term...
Just one question sticks in my mind: who made/approved the call *not* to use a clapper board...or even a pair of hands? That would seem to be the problem's 'inciting incident' to use a screenwriter's term...
Patryk_Rebisz
Veteran
BTW, out of curiosity was the issue that your Red didn't record audio or that you recorded at 23.97 while sound at 24 (thus the audio started to drift)?
Chris Santucci
Veteran
Thanks. And, not really. If I'd done much more work for this producer, I could see some form of compromise just to help out, but one job every 5 years doesn't warrant that.
The sound mixer walked up to me while we were setting up camera at the beginning of the first shoot day and asked me what we were doing. I said "double system sound," and he walked away. Then the AD informed the AC not to clap the slate as we were getting ready to roll. That was it. I'd been peripherally suspect of the reason for not clapping the slate so when there were issues with the audio functions within the R1 (around the beginning of day 2 of 3), I told the AC to start clapping the slate since I figured at that point - it made far more sense to clap than not to clap.
An audio signal was sent to the R1 from the mixer for the sake of playback for clients (from external recorder being fed via HDMI from R1), but the sound mixer decided on his own that that was sufficient for post sync purposes. Doesn't sound like "double system sound" to me and since I was asked, I figured that was the safest possible option. Oh-well. The sound mixer had a 15 year old smart slate, so it did not have 23.98 speed (our camera speed) which I'm guessing is why sound mixer informed AD to inform AC not to clap the slate.
If I'd been the sound mixer, I would never rely on the audio capability of a R1, nor the timecode it generates. Not to mention the fact that I was asked and given the apparent authority to decide on - "double system sound."
It was 38 hours of "offline system" sync time X $135/hour plus 12 hours of audio engineer time (at $300/hour) for "audio fixes for syncing, perfecting audio hum's, cut outs, and levels for mixing."
Wow! I wish I had 38 hours to sync at $135/hour! I do sync dailies all the time and those prices would be a luxury! And the hum fixing, cut out and stuff is usually handled by sound post after the conform to original audio files so you're not doing it to everything. But it does seem to point out how bad the audio recorder talent was on the set with all those additional quality problems. I jam sync my Sound Devices to an R1 all the time - I don't see what the issue there might be - but I still recommend a clap even with timecode sync and all the fancy stuff.
And to answer a previous posting - 23.976 speed and 24fps timecode being recoded have no impact on playback sync. Sync and drift is affected by frame rate on picture and sample rate on audio.
Michael
Liam Hall
Veteran
As an ex-film editor I must say, thirty-eight hours seems more than thirty hours too long to me. Was it overly complex? Can't see why the audio engineers time has to brought into the mix either. All seems very wrong.
Chris Santucci
Veteran
Not complex at all. Just people in a room talking. That's it. Apparently there were issues with the recorded audio too.
LyleGorch
Well-known member
All-in-all a stunning saga. The overage at the end is a big clue to the relative technical sophistication of the Producer, they were obviously wetting themselves when informed by post that there were "sync issues" and unfortunately post, smelling blood, dug greedily and deeply.
That is some weird smart slate if it only does 24 true, I sort of suspect the mixer just didn't know how to reset it (or didn't bring the screwdriver).
That is some weird smart slate if it only does 24 true, I sort of suspect the mixer just didn't know how to reset it (or didn't bring the screwdriver).
Patryk_Rebisz
Veteran
Reminds me of this job i shot near Boston (maybe the same sound man?!?) who didn't want to do double system but my AC (who was providing the camera package) just in case provided him the wires so he could feed the sound into the camera... 1/3 into the shoot he screams that there is a problem with his sound system (in the process freaking out the talent and the producer...). We played back the audio and it was filled with hiss and hum (something that he couldn't hear even on playback!) - basically his audio was crap. I couldn't be more thankful for my AC providing those wires! And i couldn't be more proud of myself for forcing him to send the signal as back-up (which of course ended up the actual audio) to the Red.
Chris Santucci
Veteran
I assume it was meant for use with film only so yeah, only true 24fps. The thing was 15 years old I was told so I'm sure it was made before video cameras ran at 23.98. It's a good thing he never upgraded his slate :thumbsup:
Film cameras have been able to do 23.976 for a long time now as well as a lot of other frame rates for over and undercranking... 15 years would put his slate at 1998 which I believe had film cameras at 23.976. But if the slate as intended for any type of production it would support fractional frame rates due to NTSC production... It sounds more like an excuse to cover a mistake to me. But perhaps they made slates that only did one timecode only. Also, in cases of extreme lack of control with on set double system workflows and there is a scratch track recorded, then PluralEyes can often help. The only reason to go back to the BWAV from double system would be for ISO tracks if only a mix was sent to the camera. But if the camera has the same tracks at the recorder then...
Michael
Michael