Audio Noob

[jcrewmaster01]

So, I have a questions about workflow for audio. I currently have the Adobe Suite. I am using a Rode NTG-3 mic and a Zoom H4N. Because I really have no idea what I am doing when it comes to audio should I record my dialogue and then cut the tracks so that ONLY the dialogue is left? Then add in folly, room-tone ect? Or is it safe to just keep the full track for the dialogue and then add others in too?

Much appreciated for the future help!

 

[unclebob6958]

I really have no idea what I am doing when it comes to audio... should I record my dialogue and then cut the tracks so that ONLY the dialogue is left? Then add in folly, room-tone ect? Or is it safe to just keep the full track for the dialogue and then add others in too?

First, it's Foley, with a capital "F". It is named after Jack Foley who codified the process.

That's the way it is supposed to be done - strip out everything but the dialog - but it all depends upon your budget and your deadline.

 

[paulears]

You mustn't run till you can walk. Foley? This isn't something you can just 'add'. It's a whole new recording technique - and done badly, you might have been better to use the location sound. Room tone is the same. You can't add it in properly if the recording has it's own characteristic sound. For all these elements to gel, every stage needs managing properly, and there's little hope a beginner can get this right. You need a lot of poor recordings to steer you towards making good ones.

I guess before you move further, just have a critical listen to what you've recorded so far. What is the quality like - tonally, perspective, liveness, consistent sound. Once you've sussed this, you can have a go at effects. As an example, record some common Foley type effects and see what happens. Punches are great. If you record a punch - as in a real thump to maybe your own arm or leg - it sounds NOTHING like a punch. Try other common sounds that we hear in movies. Footsteps are another. Real feet do not make the noise we expect (and often hear). The art of Foley is making the right noise, by different methods. When I used to teach media - I'd spend a few sessions on effects when I needed cheering up. Every new student would discover how rubbish real sounds were, and try amazing ways to get a realistic sound and usually fail - miserably!

 

[Paul F]

You have to plan audio the way you plan the shoot. When your in pre-production, you need to assess each scene and how it will be recorded. You will anticipate what scenes will have good production audio and which will not. Then you plan which scenes will only need slight work in post and which need a full reproduction of sound.

Scene 1 - INT DAY KELLY AND BILL

Kelly and Bill are sitting at a table discussing their day.

You should be able to get good production sound with no need to do any Foley or other post work. You may want to add some sound effects like a clock ticking or a car going by outside. But for the most part, the production sound is good.

Scene 2 - EXT DAY BILL FIGHTS TITO

In this scene, every shot is carefully choreographed. So is the sound. Every punch is re-recorded on a Foley stage. Every grunt is re-recorded in ADR. The sound of the break-away chair is substituted by Foley or a sound effect.

 

[Noiz2]

So, I have a questions about workflow for audio. I currently have the Adobe Suite. I am using a Rode NTG-3 mic and a Zoom H4N. Because I really have no idea what I am doing when it comes to audio should I record my dialogue and then cut the tracks so that ONLY the dialogue is left? Then add in folly, room-tone ect? Or is it safe to just keep the full track for the dialogue and then add others in too?

Much appreciated for the future help!

You see it's a folly to not capitalize the F in Foley ;~)

first things first, terms.

Foley is recorded live to picture on a Foley stage.
If you record FX wild they are FX.

Room Tone is something you record during production and is used to fill in the holes when your dialog editor pulls out all the non dialog sounds. This is generally a waste of time on a low budget film. The reasons to scrub a dialog track don't largely relate to a low budget film. So you should pull out a lot of the "production FX" (the junk that you happened to record during production) because you will want to replace them with better sounding FX. Some you can just layer other sounds on top of so... YMMV.

The vast majority of the non dialog sounds in a big budget feature are FX. All the "ambience" and "backgrounds" are FX. Hits and punches are not generally done in Foley, they are FX. It's not that they can't be done but on a film with a couple of months of sound post there may only be 4-5 days of Foley work in the budget so other things have a higher priority. Plus other than the odd unimportant "hit" most fight hits are designed and layered up, and that is just easier in editorial than on the stage.

You probably won't do any real Foley, because your not set up for it. But you can do fake Foley. What is sometimes called WIFO (WIld FOly). Basically you reference the footage (put a clip on a tablet or something) and do the sounds wild but kind of in sync. This is good for things like footsteps and various other "touchy" sounds.

You are also going to want to go out with a list from your "spotting" the film (going through and seeing what is missing) and record stuff. Doors, gadgets etc.

My general approach to low budget films is to not remove stuff from production, providing it fits or doesn't get in the way. Obviously that jet overhead in your western has got to go, but a lot of the time you can leve most of the tracks intact. Once you layer in backgrounds and a lot of specific FX then you can volume out or remove production sound that is getting in the way or mudding it up. This will save you a ton of time.


As to how much to add. Turn off the production and add in sounds till it sounds great but with no dialog. The general rule for hard FX (everything but backgrounds and ambiences) is "if it moves it makes a sound". Then bring in you cleaned up production tracks and balance the FX down so they don't get in the way of the dialog. The last thing is to add music.

When you bring the dialog back in it will be obvious where you need to really clean out the production tracks and where they blend with you FX tracks.

 

[Noiz2]

You have to plan audio the way you plan the shoot. When your in pre-production, you need to assess each scene and how it will be recorded. You will anticipate what scenes will have good production audio and which will not. Then you plan which scenes will only need slight work in post and which need a full reproduction of sound.

Scene 1 - INT DAY KELLY AND BILL

Kelly and Bill are sitting at a table discussing their day.

You should be able to get good production sound with no need to do any Foley or other post work. You may want to add some sound effects like a clock ticking or a car going by outside. But for the most part, the production sound is good.

Scene 2 - EXT DAY BILL FIGHTS TITO

In this scene, every shot is carefully choreographed. So is the sound. Every punch is re-recorded on a Foley stage. Every grunt is re-recorded in ADR. The sound of the break-away chair is substituted by Foley or a sound effect.

If the above works for you depends a lot on what you are trying to achieve. I'm coming from features with budgets and national ads and the above would not fly at all. It is not an uncommon scenario for micro budget films, but personally I think it's also one of their major shortcomings.

Sound post is not particularly expensive, but it does take time. If your going to take some time thinking about sound before you shoot (MAJORLY recommended) spend it to give yourself the best possible production dialog recordings. Then allow the time to do a proper sound post.

Scene 1:

On a big film all you are going to get is very clean dialog with RT fill. It will sound like what it is, two actors on a stage. So post is going to add the rest of the world. All the sounds outside of the room, all the sounds inside the room. Specifics probably for prop movements chair movements etc. Foley is also going to cover this. At the very least you will have a "cloth" track. All the sounds made by cloths etc when people move. This will be used for the dubbed version and for any ADR that is needed.

Scene 2:

Again all of the above plus the fight will be done in FX with Foley doing footsteps and hand touches etc. If one grabs the other it's probably Foley but the hits will be FX. Chair breaks etc will be FX, though parts could be Foley also. There are no "hits" to replace since in a properly choreographed fight the will never have made contact. So you just play with it till it feels right. Generally what happens is that FX editors cover everything they can and Foley covers what the editors couldn't.