Audio Laundry List

O

olindacat

Well-known member
Hi. Been a while. I am overwhelmed with how audio and video are converging with say, laptops, iMacs, iPads, or more conventional devices. I am on the fence about how to deal with my cameras and their lack of audio control, and my aging portable recorder, and the sync issues with longer duration tracks. I also need more inputs. Three minimum. Obviously, the SD302 comes to mind, or the new Fostex as a replacement for the aging PDM670 I use. Odds are I'll add more DSLR or mirrorless cameras to my line-up, given their affordability and flexibility, but getting the audio into the mix in sync is even more important than ever!

Then there's the whole workflow in general. I'm using 2011 iMac i7 with two 240GB RAID 0 stripped internal SSDs, so speed isn't an issue. I wonder if I drag this around or perhaps use a Thunderbolt/Laptop/SSD array. Can you capture audio to an SSD through, say Boom Recorder, while simultaneously capturing footage via HDMI out to the same SSD/laptop/iMac, etc? Do you need an interface with a laptop or iMac, or can the headphone out jack do?

I wonder how many have mixed cams, like the three cams I have, a VG10, AW100, and a D7000. They are not idea solutions for audio or video. But they work. I use the PMD670, with either my one G3 100 wireless set-up, my MKH416, or NTG3, but can't get three mics in without a mixer. I wonder if buying a mixer alone and hooking that up to the computer is better than a mixer/recorder combo, as my in-camera audio as AGC and I have too many issues with wild talent.

Does that new Fostex (DC-R302) need a mixer in front of it, or does it do mixing internally? If I am reading the posts here and the info on their site correctly, it can sync jam the camera (is that the right term?)? Can this work as an interface as well? Sending audio to camera or controlling camera as well as sending direct to computer, thus eliminating the need to move files later? Can you add meta data to tracks in real time if it does interface? Or, do you need a separate interface, like an Apogee?


I have got two Genelec 1029a NF monitors and they are just connected tot he headphone jack on my iMac. I have a feeling this isn't idea, but am unsure what to do given all of the above: would the Fostex serve as an interface and make monitoring better, do I need an Apogee?

The obvious responses I will probably get flamed with: what's your budget, what isn't working, why this or that? I get it. My questions are posed not only for my own benefit but others who are not audio pros, but who have cobbled together their kits with lots of sweat equity and eBaying, and are trying to figure out what to do to improve and streamline their lives. (I do not have the budget for a camera with good internal audio, I do not have a budget for an SD302/702 combo, I do not have any idea how to monitor correctly, and no, I do not have a nice studio with padded walls, floors and ceilings that point on odd directions. I am a one man band trying to figure out how to get three channels of the talent's voice, the folio, etc. into the NLE as expediently as possible, at the highest quality, using what is out and working now, in conjunction with my particular list of gear.)

I'm sure others here are in my boat, to more or lesser degrees....
 
Not sure what you mean by
the folio, etc.
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Possibly Foley???? I suspect a spell corrector here.

Most sound people started off with cobbled together stuff. Actually most are still using a cobbled together set up just a lot better stuff than when they started.

It's a lot harder to do good sound in a NLE than it is in a DAW. That is part of the problem with being a one man band. A two man band is a bigger step up than just having one more person, if the other person has a different skill set.

That said, it isn't usually a huge deal unless you are doing narrative features. Shorts you can slide a bit with and even though audio post can make a world of difference on a doc, there is a LOT of slack that docs get than a narrative won't.

If your doing ENG, weddings, etc you probably can't get beyond the NLE so...

The biggest thing I would say is keep the "quality" consistent. If most of the film is at one level and then a short bit is way better, or way worse the whole film suffers. One fantastic CG shot will make the rest of the film look worse. One bit of heavy SFX will make the rest of the sound track sound weak.
 
Why do you need 3 channels for the talent's voice? If it's just one person, all you need is one mono track. Your statement implies three actors, each individually mic'ed. But if that is your scenario, mixing them on the fly as you shoot is not generally considered a good idea - you can't 'un-mix' them later if your initial mix decisions turn out not to play well. And as a one-man operation it becomes doubly difficult - mixing is absolutely NOT a 'set-and-forget' type of operation - you're going to be focused on camera work and will be unable to give the sound the attention it needs at the same time. The better way is to use a recorder that has as many tracks as you have mics and record each individual to his own iso track, waiting for post to do the mixing. And what do you mean by getting "the folio" into the NLE?

How to monitor correctly? Do you mean monitoring as you shoot or as you're mixing - each has its own unique priorities. Monitoring correctly on set means hearing the sound you're recording as your record it so you'll know if the sound was good or if there was a problem like the subject going off-mic or an airplane going overhead or whatnot and can call a retake if something went wrong. Monitoring in the mix means working with neutral monitors with calibrated levels so you can hear all the details and tonality of the sound and can make proper decisions on relative levels, equalization settings, etc.
 
Steve House said:
Why do you need 3 channels for the talent's voice? If it's just one person, all you need is one mono track. Your statement implies three actors, each individually mic'ed. But if that is your scenario, mixing them on the fly as you shoot is not generally considered a good idea - you can't 'un-mix' them later if your initial mix decisions turn out not to play well. And as a one-man operation it becomes doubly difficult - mixing is absolutely NOT a 'set-and-forget' type of operation - you're going to be focused on camera work and will be unable to give the sound the attention it needs at the same time. The better way is to use a recorder that has as many tracks as you have mics and record each individual to his own iso track, waiting for post to do the mixing. And what do you mean by getting "the folio" into the NLE?

How to monitor correctly? Do you mean monitoring as you shoot or as you're mixing - each has its own unique priorities. Monitoring correctly on set means hearing the sound you're recording as your record it so you'll know if the sound was good or if there was a problem like the subject going off-mic or an airplane going overhead or whatnot and can call a retake if something went wrong. Monitoring in the mix means working with neutral monitors with calibrated levels so you can hear all the details and tonality of the sound and can make proper decisions on relative levels, equalization settings, etc.
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Basically: I'm screwed. Yes, it was a typo. I meant foley. You know, squeaking wheels, heartbeats, tic tocs, etc. Yes, I am shooting and mic'ing three people: my dad, my wife, and me. Yes, I am the 'talent' as well as the camera and audio coolie.

Not unusual in my life to be the moron.

The 'film' is a narrative, just what Scott is assuring me I'm okay NOT doing. It is a way for me to help my dad recollect a lifetime. Marie (wife) and I are in it only to break it up as we are on the same floor of the same building in Manhattan. I will also venture outdoors, as far as my dad can walk (one-two blocks) to PJ Clarkes, where he and Rocky Graziano and Phil Kennedy (Yankees) and Billy Martin and Mickey Mantle and all the rest hung out (his ad agency was in the big black skyscraper that was built around that oldtime NYC bar.)

So, the old guy is a NYC icon and worthy as a talent and as a personality for a docudrama type project, which Marie and I are doing to advance ourselves beyond the garbage golf PR spin doctor crap I shove out each year. (We are Hawaii people, but here in NYC for the foreseeable future to hang with our parents).

I just bought a TLM-103 and was going to make a VO box. Then have him read passages from his incomplete but lengthy autobiography. I was going to film him in his daily life with his recollections narrated by him, as he happens upon things that trigger his memories.

The max of three people boomed enables me to lock down the cameras for most dialogue scenes, much like interviews. I know I'll be in for misery as I have been doing on-course golf coverage for years and already know how stupid I am, so save your breath ;-)

It sounds like I skip the mixer and get the tracks into the recorder as you say. The Marantz only has two imputs. I am not sure if I set it to Stereo Mic (L/R in) or Mono L/R? If I get the Fostex recorder, with the three ins, will that work as an interface does anyone know? Do I still need an Apogee interface if I have the Fostex?

It is questions like these, from idiots like me, that make the world go 'round for the experts here, I know. :-) Aloha and mahalo nui loa. (Been a while since I chatted with you two. Nice to hear from yo and thanks.)
 
Don't confuse Foley (note that it is correct to capitalize it, Foley is a person's name) with sound effects. Foley is recorded by a Foley artist performing to playback of the picture - it is recorded completely separately from dialog. SFX are also recorded separately from dialog but don't involve someone making the sounds as they watch the picture.

Set the Marantz to Stereo L/R Mic and it will record a stereo file with the mic on the left input going to the left channel and the mic on the right input going to the right channel. Mono L/R will record a mono file with the mics on the left and right inputs mixed together (Page 18 of the 670's manual). Be sure to record 48kHz wav or bwf - do not use mp3.

The TLM103 is an excellent choice for a studio and VO mic but not so much for a boom - way too heavy, as a side-address mic it is hard to aim precisely, not a tight enough pattern for location dialog, needs to be too close to the talent's mouth during voice recording to keep out of shot.

I didn't say skip the mixer, just don't use it to mix your mics on the fly. While you can send the mics straight to the recorder and get good results, a mixer gives you more control and flexibility.

There are a lot of excellent interfaces besides Apogee and while you can get by without one they do have some advantages. An external interface is usually better than the computer's built-in sound card. Having one would provide a better connection to your monitor speakers than plugging them into the computer's headphone jack. You could also record your VO directly into the computer without the added step of recording to the Marantz and then transferring the files. You don't need one to get the Marantz' recordings into your computer - it records to a CF card and you can pop the card out of the recorder and into a card reader or you can connect the recorder directly to your computer through its I/O port and a USB cable and simply copy the files over.
 
Thanks, Steve.

Thanks, Steve.

Thanks for correcting me on Foley's name/purpose/meaning.

Thanks, also, for the tips on settings for the Marantz. I did read every page of that manual, more than once I might add, and am still not clear why Mono L/R is even used? To save space?

I am, of course, trying to use what I own first. After reading through everything here, I decided to look for a mic for my dad's narrative and got the TLM103 because it was a little more affordable for me. I am praying it will sound good with a home-made VO box, similar to the ones you see on YouTube made from wine cases and foam. This is an isolated recording set-up apart from normal dialogue recording that I aim to do. Obviously, having him in a real studio with some pros around would be my ideal choice, but my father will not leave the house or go to one. It's difficult to get him out of his own room.

So, I am trying to work with what I've got situationally, gear-wise, etc. I am essentially getting this: no shotguns indoors where it isn't a proper environ, meaning an acoustically good place. No using the Neumann on a boom. In short: buy three new mics. I haven't heard any ping back on whether a lav vs boom is better or worse. I keep thinking the sounds of the lav ruffling under a shirt, or in hair, etc., may be an issue.... No matter what: if I want to record dialogue with three people, indoors, in a highly reflective environ, and I want to keep each voice separate from the other, as in three monos, is this possible using the Marantz and a mixer, or the Fostex http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/products/DC-R302.shtml, or is the computer with Boom Recorder the only option?



Steve House said:
Don't confuse Foley (note that it is correct to capitalize it, Foley is a person's name) with sound effects. Foley is recorded by a Foley artist performing to playback of the picture - it is recorded completely separately from dialog. SFX are also recorded separately from dialog but don't involve someone making the sounds as they watch the picture.

Set the Marantz to Stereo L/R Mic and it will record a stereo file with the mic on the left input going to the left channel and the mic on the right input going to the right channel. Mono L/R will record a mono file with the mics on the left and right inputs mixed together (Page 18 of the 670's manual). Be sure to record 48kHz wav or bwf - do not use mp3.

The TLM103 is an excellent choice for a studio and VO mic but not so much for a boom - way too heavy, as a side-address mic it is hard to aim precisely, not a tight enough pattern for location dialog, needs to be too close to the talent's mouth during voice recording to keep out of shot.

I didn't say skip the mixer, just don't use it to mix your mics on the fly. While you can send the mics straight to the recorder and get good results, a mixer gives you more control and flexibility.

There are a lot of excellent interfaces besides Apogee and while you can get by without one they do have some advantages. An external interface is usually better than the computer's built-in sound card. Having one would provide a better connection to your monitor speakers than plugging them into the computer's headphone jack. You could also record your VO directly into the computer without the added step of recording to the Marantz and then transferring the files. You don't need one to get the Marantz' recordings into your computer - it records to a CF card and you can pop the card out of the recorder and into a card reader or you can connect the recorder directly to your computer through its I/O port and a USB cable and simply copy the files over.
Click to expand...
 
As for whether a lav or boom is better for dialog ... it depends. For a sit-down interview such as your Dad recollecting his experiences I'd probably think first of using a hard-wired lav (ie, a lav mic connected directly to the mixer or recorder, not through a wireless). The ability to relax in a comfy chair rather than trying to work into a boom mic or desk mic should put him more at ease. There's no need to try to hide the mic under his clothes so clothing rustle shouldn't be an issue if you rig the mic properly.

Mono L/R is used when there's only one mic input and you want it centred between left and right in the soundfield. It doesn't save any space as two tracks take the same file space regardless of what is recorded on them. I'd do that in post rather than when making the original recording myself, recording a single mono track does save file space and is easy to pan into the centre in the editing workstation. Something the Marantz does offer that is really useful is DL Mono L/R mode, where the same mic is recorded on the left channel at full volume and on the right 15dB lower - that way you have a safety track in case a sudden loud noise pushes the main recording into clipping.

The Fostex appears to be a nice piece of kit but it is still only a stereo recorder - it combines a 3 channel mixer with a stereo recorder so you're still mixing 3 down to 2. You can't use it to record three separate iso mic tracks. A SD302 in front of your Marantz recorder does the same thing and gives you the flexibility of having a stand-alone mixer available for other projects. My feeling at the moment is there is no compelling reason to prefer one approach over the other. Do you really need 3 live mics at once? I'll bet with a bit of shot planning you could go with 2 or even just one mic on the principle. If you actually do want to record 3 iso tracks you're going to have to upgrade to a multitrack recorder or use your PC with a multitrack interface. While Boom Recorder is an excellent program you can use to record directly into your computer, it's not the only one - both Adobe Audition and Sony Soundforge offer mulitrack recording and there are a number of other programs you could use as well. Any of them, including Boom Recorder, will require you to add a multichannel interface to your computer.
 
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Good grief, Steve, you are an encyclopedia and I appreciate your time and help.

Steve House said:
As for whether a lav or boom is better for dialog ... it depends. For a sit-down interview such as your Dad recollecting his experiences I'd probably think first of using a hard-wired lav (ie, a lav mic connected directly to the mixer or recorder, not through a wireless). The ability to relax in a comfy chair rather than trying to work into a boom mic or desk mic should put him more at ease. There's no need to try to hide the mic under his clothes so clothing rustle shouldn't be an issue if you rig the mic properly.

Mono L/R is used when there's only one mic input and you want it centred between left and right in the soundfield. It doesn't save any space as two tracks take the same file space regardless of what is recorded on them. I'd do that in post rather than when making the original recording myself, recording a single mono track does save file space and is easy to pan into the centre in the editing workstation. Something the Marantz does offer that is really useful is DL Mono L/R mode, where the same mic is recorded on the left channel at full volume and on the right 15dB lower - that way you have a safety track in case a sudden loud noise pushes the main recording into clipping.

The Fostex appears to be a nice piece of kit but it is still only a stereo recorder - it combines a 3 channel mixer with a stereo recorder so you're still mixing 3 down to 2. You can't use it to record three separate iso mic tracks. A SD302 in front of your Marantz recorder does the same thing and gives you the flexibility of having a stand-alone mixer available for other projects. My feeling at the moment is there is no compelling reason to prefer one approach over the other. Do you really need 3 live mics at once? I'll bet with a bit of shot planning you could go with 2 or even just one mic on the principle. If you actually do want to record 3 iso tracks you're going to have to upgrade to a multitrack recorder or use your PC with a multitrack interface. While Boom Recorder is an excellent program you can use to record directly into your computer, it's not the only one - both Adobe Audition and Sony Soundforge offer mulitrack recording and there are a number of other programs you could use as well. Any of them, including Boom Recorder, will require you to add a multichannel interface to your computer.
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Hooray for your efforts in trying to preserve your dad's legacy. I had plans to do that for my dad but waited too long. Technically I can't add to the advice already given; just don't wait too long!
 
Thanks.

Thanks.

He's worth it. Thanks for noticing :-)

zjrt02 said:
Hooray for your efforts in trying to preserve your dad's legacy. I had plans to do that for my dad but waited too long. Technically I can't add to the advice already given; just don't wait too long!
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