Audio for DSLR - T2i

D

DDirector

Veteran
I am planning on getting the Canon t2i, but that depends on how much the audio set-up will cost.

I have $2,000 to spend in total.
I already have the camera, and a lens to purchase, leaving me with not a lot of money left over.

I need advice as to which mic. to get.

- It needs to have a windscreen available to shoot outdoors if windy.
- I do prefer to have it attached to a boom pole, but since I am now doing this for learning, I cannot guarantee I will have a sound person, so somehow I will also need to have it attach to the camera.

I want the shotgun mic. (NTG-2) But, the DSLR does not have the XLR inputs. So, what do I do? How much will this cost me?

I also heard about the H4n/ZoomH4, I believe it was... From what I saw from the pics. almost everyone had it attached to their camera. Can I have it attached on a boom if I had a boom operator?
What about a windscreen for it? Can I get one, or do I need one for it?


So, what should I get?
*I need a cheap set-up. I am guessing that I have around $500 to spend on audio.

Thanks.
 
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The h4n is too heavy to use on a boom (unless you hire a robot) so I wouldn't suggest that. It's great for recording ambience though, and I bought a windscreen here that works well...
http://www.redheadwindscreens.com/

As for what'll work best for you though,

What type of films are you doing (short dramatic films, feature dramatic, documentary, interviews)
Are your locations PRIMARILY interiors or exteriors?
Is this purchase for a specific project or are you looking to purchase a kit for general future projects?
Why do you feel that it is beneficial for you to buy sound gear versus hiring a professional (or networking for free with a professional) to do your audio?
 
I'm just looking to buy equipment so that I can make films for practice. Its not for some specific project. I have not don't much, but what I have done was using the schools equipment, which isn't all that great.

What I plan to do is mostly short films, both indoors and outdoors, night and day.

I don't want to hire, since I am on low budget, and most of what I do (As of now) is not something that will get me money.

Its mostly for fun & practice, and possibly send one of the few into a film festival. So, I want to have something decent that will work on a DSLR camera, but dont know what will work, or what I need to purchase with it.
 
I don't think $500 is really going to cut it if you're starting from scratch.

The DVeStore has an NTG-2 kit for $499 that has the mic, a cheap boom, wind protection, shock mount, and an XLR cable. But you'd still need good phones for monitoring (ie MDR-7506) for about $100, and either a recorder or an adapter to go from the XLR to the camera's input - the recorder generally being the better option with DSLRs. For a recorder with XLR ins, say a DR-100 or an H4n, you're looking at another $300.An adapter can be as cheap as like $20 for a little cable type adapter to hundreds for a beachtek/juicedlink box with a way to defeat the AGC of the camera.

If you just want something to screw around with and start to learn, maybe look at the rode video mic. It'll mount on the shoe of the camera (insert standard "on-camera sound sucks" disclaimer here) and you can use an extension cable and some MacGuyvering to rig it up on a diy boom or whatever. Not a great solution, but it would maybe get you started on the cheap.
 
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I'm going to get controversial here and agree with JordanBlock. I would get the VideoMic from Rode.

The reasons are your going to need something like this when you do better sound anyway since the ONLY way to get decent sound with a DSLR is to use double system and your going to need a guide track on the video file to help sync the second system sound. In the meantime for $500 you can't really get much. The VideoMic works quite well for what it is and will probably sound better than the shotgun indoors. And it comes with a shock mount that works pretty well and some foam and in general is fairly wind resistant. AND it's light and will attach to your camera. When you want to move up I would hire someone rather than spend a bunch on sound equipment. With what you have left over from the VideoMic I would get a little Flash recorder like the h2 or similar. That will give you something to use to collect sounds for ambiences etc and it doesn't have a big learning curve. You can also use it as a plant recorder in a pinch. With cheap Radio Shack wired lav you even have a way to lav an actor in a long shot.

None of the above is "high end" professional gear but it should do OK for what your doing and it is simple enough that it won't get in the way much. Your also going to want some decent headphones, though at this stage you could probably deal with earbuds from your iPod.

A good thing to try and do when buying equipment is to buy appropriate for the situation and to try to only buy stuff that you will still have some use for as you move up. So buying a $10,000 recorder is not appropriate for your situation (even if you had the money). But all of the above would still be useful if you had a $10,000 recorder.
 
JordanBlock said:
I...
(insert standard "on-camera sound sucks" disclaimer here)
Click to expand...

It should actually not be as bad as with a camcorder since there are no mechanics when the camera is shooting. So you still have the distance issue but your not picking up all the transport/ HD noise that a camcorder usually has.

A friend who's normal rig is a pair of Neumann's into a Nagra V used the VideoMic on a small HD camcorder fro this personal project where weight and ease of use outweighed other considerations and was quite pleased with the results. He didn't have very high expectations but he was surprised with the quality.
Click to expand...
 
Well, if I purchase this equipment used, then I think I could pull it off.
I could get both the NTG-2 & the H2n as the recorder.

I don't necessary need it all new.
you think I could pull it off?
 
What exactly are you going to do with the NTG-2?
You asked for advice and got a bunch of it. If you just wanted someone to say "go spend money" then you shouldn't have asked the question.
Yes you can probably get those two pieces used for $500.
But that does not fit your needs and you will need to spend a bunch more to get much use out of it. It's not a good choice for indoors and you need a zeppelin or a softy at least to use it out doors, and a shock mount, and it won't attach to the camera so you will need a boom operator and yes also a boom. Now your $500 is moving into the $+1,000 range.
 
Oh and you are still going to want a mic for the camera so you can post sync.
Cheers
SK
 
OK, I got it now...
I decided not to get the NTG-2. It would not be good for me.

For the VideoMic from Rode, that won't cause any issues with noise on the camera will it?

I have seen a lot of people use the H4n on their DSLR's. The two have similar prices, about a $50 difference. Over the two microphones, which would be best? - Which would you get if the prices were the same?

Noiz2 said:
Oh and you are still going to want a mic for the camera so you can post sync.
Click to expand...
Can't I just use a slate to sync the sound to the video if I am using the H4n?
 
DDirector said:
...

Can't I just use a slate to sync the sound to the video if I am using the H4n?
Click to expand...

You can, and should, use a slate to establish sync. But if you also have a a scratch track recorded in camera along with your video, it is easier to fine-tune the sync of the separately recorded file you'll actually use by matching the waveforms as you nudge the production sound recording back and forth until it's spot on.
 
May I ask how all the syncing works out postpro?
When I see the cryptic filenames of my HVX, how does this look comming from a H4n?
And if I imagine going through 100 clips from my t2i and searching for the corresponding clips from the Zoom I get the shivers...
As I understand the PluralEyes software, you still have to tell it which clips to align, right?
Or do I just create folders with "Video_Scene_01" and "Audio_Scene_01" and PluralEyes does the rest...?
(Didn´t mean to threadjack here, hope this is of concern for the OP too...)
 
DDirector said:
OK, I got it now...
I decided not to get the NTG-2. It would not be good for me.

For the VideoMic from Rode, that won't cause any issues with noise on the camera will it?

I have seen a lot of people use the H4n on their DSLR's. The two have similar prices, about a $50 difference. Over the two microphones, which would be best? - Which would you get if the prices were the same?


Can't I just use a slate to sync the sound to the video if I am using the H4n?
Click to expand...


The Rode VideoMic won't add extra noise on the camera, as long as the wire itself isnt slapping against it.
 
Spartacus said:
May I ask how all the syncing works out postpro?
When I see the cryptic filenames of my HVX, how does this look comming from a H4n?
And if I imagine going through 100 clips from my t2i and searching for the corresponding clips from the Zoom I get the shivers...
...
Click to expand...

And that's why you document the filenames recorded in your camera and those recorded in your audio recorder, along with slate information as to scene and take, etc, in a "sound report" log compiled as you shoot.

Someone else will have to reply to your PluralEyes questions, haven't seen it myself.
 
Using a clapper to sync the audio will probably not be that big of an issue, it'll just take some time.

-However, I have seen some people use the H4n connected directly to the camera. Does this cause any unwanted noise?

-As for the videomic, I am still concerned of whether there will be any noise issues if I plug it into the camera. I heard some reviews that some people did have that problem.

*The two mics are basically a $50 difference. The h4n I can record separately from the camera being sure it will not cause noise, which I cannot with the videomic. But, the H4n uses SDHC cards, which is another additional accessory, since I don't believe 1GB will be enough.

Any additional info about these two mics, and which to get?
 
First off these are not "two mics". One is a recorder that has a pair of cardioid mics built in and the other is a hyper super short shotgun mic. They really have very little in common. Neither is going to "cause noise" on the camera. The audio in the camera is going to be relatively noisy compared to, well just about anything. But with all due respect you have no idea what your doing right now and you should probably take the baby step of just trying some things out. Anything that isn't mounted on the camera pretty much requires a sound person. You have already said you are not going to have one. Do you know anything about gain structure etc. I'm guessing no. So stick to the KISS principal (Keep It Simple (the final S has various translations from Stupid to Silly (you need that last S or the whole Kiss thing falls apart)) but you get the point). Yes you can sync off a slate, have you ever done that? I'm guessing no since you asked the question. You can use Pluraleyes (which I haven't used but has some solid reviews) and maybe make your life easier. You can keep good notes - but then you working sans crew so can you?

I'm not dumping on you it's just that I have been there and done that. I do post sound, I shot a little thing the other day and it was just me and a friend and the folks we were filming and I even had a story board. But we were not fully organized and I didn't have pro's in all the positions. It was really short so not too bad with two system sound but I was doing that so I wasn't checking focus (and as it turns out neither was the cameraman. I wasn't watching the monitor because I was doing sound and we have boom shadows! And some color mismatch with non daylight balanced..... It's my punishment for hubris to get this all worked out. BUT my point is
You can't do it all. If your not going to have a crew simplify your set up.

The best sound is the sound you actually get. Double system is not simple AND you need at least one other person or your going to screw up the other end of things. So get a mic you can slap on the camera, go shoot some stuff and learn the camera. Take that footage and learn a bit about the editing. Those two come first. Keep the sound simple till you know what your doing, at least a little. Otherwise your just going to overload and the whole thing is going to melt down around you.

The step up from the video mic is a big one. It's all gotten a lot cheaper but you're at least in the $2K region by the time you get a boom pole a pair of mics and proper wind protection and some kind of recorder. Even if you say heck with it and try to use just one mic I bet your still in the $2K region. And trying to go just part of that step actually sends you back in quality. A badly boomed shot is WORSE than a mic on the camera 99% of the time.

As a little example this is a very Short sample from a project that is in now. THis is BAD booming. But it actually get worse in some places. And they had a "sound person". This is worse than most but it's not "rare" in films from new filmmakers.


DDirector said:
Using a clapper to sync the audio will probably not be that big of an issue, it'll just take some time.

-However, I have seen some people use the H4n connected directly to the camera. Does this cause any unwanted noise?

-As for the videomic, I am still concerned of whether there will be any noise issues if I plug it into the camera. I heard some reviews that some people did have that problem.

*The two mics are basically a $50 difference. The h4n I can record separately from the camera being sure it will not cause noise, which I cannot with the videomic. But, the H4n uses SDHC cards, which is another additional accessory, since I don't believe 1GB will be enough.

Any additional info about these two mics, and which to get?
Click to expand...
 
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$500? no problem


for onboard, you need

ntg2 - $200
shockmount -50
xlr cable -10

i think its called jacks music store they give you discounts if you buy from them.

if you want to boom it, either a h4n or juiced link add another 200-300.

DIY boom pole and your set. i would get the ntg2 rather than the videomic just because it has xlr so if you ever choose to upgrade your camera or audio, you'll have a decent xlr mic and not have to throw away the videomic.
 
$500ish - Here's what I'd do:

Juicedlink CX211 - $189
Juicedlink DN-101 - $139
Rode NTG-2 - $249
DVeStore's DVXUser 5% puts you at about $550, but you have a true XLR adapter AND mic Pre-amp, a good shotgun, and a true way to defeat AGC, have VU meters, Headphone out and all...

Granted, this doesn't get you the headphones, boompole or cables, and you can always find better gear out there. But if you can stretch up to $600 you can have a shockmount (Rode SM4) and XLR cables as well, and then just mount on a boom mic stand or something laying around. Get the big issues out of the way first, you can probably find something that'd double as a boompole laying around your garage.
 
What the two above posts have left off of course is ANY wind protection and any way to mount the mic. The "defeat" for the AGC is to pump noise into your signal, it's not a fix it's a leaky band-aid at best. The first guy left off anyway to get the mic into the camera or boom or zep or... Any audio you record into the DSLR is going to be pretty crappy audio so spending a bunch of $ on it is pretty much a waste. #2 wants you to mount a shotgun in a fixed position??? As long as you actors don't move, actually Actor since the NTG-2 is only going to cover one. I guess my point is that both have you spending a lot more (when you add the missing necessities) and you have a set up that isn't going to work very well indoors and most of the time your going to get worse results than the Video Mic.

But hey go for it. But if you do come back and visit this thread and do a follow up. Actually do that either way. I find it interesting that the sound professionals are the ones arguing for the cheaper lighter lower impact choice?
 
My point, Noiz2, is that there's no point in doing any of this until the camera's hubris is taken care of. You could put cheap, expensive, boom mounted or fixed-positioned mics on this camera of all types, and if you're shooting dialogue you'll still have the same problems.

Personally, the "leaky band-aid" analogy seems a little harsh, but the agc defeat point is accurate. What anyone would do ideally for audio on any of these DSLR's is record it externally and use something like Pluraleyez to sync it later. Or, grab your external audio device (H4N) and use a Line-to-Mic cable with dB pad so the audio will directly sync with the camera and no blow it out.

This is a topic that goes round and round, in many threads, and people have different opinions on how to best use certain budgets for results.
 
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