Audio for Dance Group

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HalcyonBill

Member
Greetings, all! I am in talks with some dance studios to video reocrd their upcoming recitals. One of their biggest complaints (among others) is that previous videographers were unable to capture the sound of the tap dancers.
I'm wondering if anyone has experience with this, or has any ideas as to how to go about this? I have been considering using a pair of Crown PCC-160's on the stage about 6-10 feet from the dancers. Would a couple of short shotgun mics work better? I only have 1 wireless lav, so I can't mic each dancer's shoes like I understand the "pros" do. The venues will likely be high school auditoriums.
Obviously cost is an issue, as I'm a one-man-band video/audio guy. Each input will be recorded to discrete tracks directly from the FOH mixer, and I plan to record ambiance tracks and mix everything in post.
Basically I want to provide them with a more professional quality (well-planned) DVD than they've had in the past. (Plus one of these potential future clients is my neighbor, and I'd sure like to impress them!)
Anyway, just wanted to see if I'm on the right track here. Thanks for any input!
 
I think the two Crowns will do a great job, but in conjunction to those maybe consider two short shotguns overhead or possibly at floor level and aimed across the stage? Either way the audio should be pretty good since the tapping will be nice and loud.
 
Instead of shotguns I would be more inclined toward hypercardioid condensers. They are less directional than shotguns so would be better for capturing a large group. Make sure that there is a lot of isolation between the mics and the stage - shock mounts, etc. - or else you will end up with nothing but thuds and a huge rumble from the dancers feet hitting the floor.

Just a fun fact - Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire dubbed their tap sounds during audio post.
 
I am going to play with this some tomorrow. I've got a bunch of Crown PCC_130s and I'll toss in a shotgun as well to see how that sounds.
 
HalcyonBill said:
Each input will be recorded to discrete tracks directly from the FOH mixer, and I plan to record ambiance tracks and mix everything in post.
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How many audio tracks do you have? What is your recording device? By my count you'll have the music, the boundary mics and audience mics. That's six (or four if you sum the boundary & audience mics) discrete audio tracks.
 
unclebob6958 said:
How many audio tracks do you have? What is your recording device? By my count you'll have the music, the boundary mics and audience mics. That's six (or four if you sum the boundary & audience mics) discrete audio tracks.
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So far I plan to have 7 channels: 2 (stereo) for music, 2 for audience, 2 for stage (PCC's or hypercardioids), and 1 handheld mic for the emcee. I plan to record them onto the laptop comptuer from my Motu 828mkii, where I have 10 analog tracks/inputs available. The audience tracks will be on the mic inputs on the Motu, and the rest of the inputs to the Motu will be from the direct outs off the FOH console. (By the way, the cameras will be DVX100s.) Recorded audio will be manually sync'd to the video in post.
Thanks for the suggestion of the hypercardioids, good idea on those. I am looking at them now.
 
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PerroneFord said:
I am going to play with this some tomorrow. I've got a bunch of Crown PCC_130s and I'll toss in a shotgun as well to see how that sounds.
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I'm curious to find out what you've discovered, if you've had a chance to play with that yet. How do the PCC-130's compare to the '160s?
 
I don't have any 160s so I don't know how they compare. I got a bit behind last week preparing to film a short. I'll see if I can't get a recording done today or tomorrow.
 
PCC-160 are a theatrical kind of standard, although the new versions just appearing are a bit different in shape and connection type. However, there are plenty of alternatives and they all have advantages and disadvantages. The biggest snag (or actually a benefit) is that they so pickup bounce noise from the floor. Sometimes this is wanted - dance styles like stomp or the african industrial dance in the 'Gumboots' style is actually improved by the floor noise, but tap sometimes sounds a bit weird - especially if the floor is a proper wooden dance floor. We tend to then mount the boundaries on thin pieces of foam to decouple them.

Apart from Michael Flatley style tap (one mic on each foot) few dancers wear radio mics - they are so loud there really isn't a need, especially in ensemble numbers. Shotguns are too narrow, picking out individuals which sounds wrong, so I'd go with the hypercardioids or even ordinary cardioids if they are placed to cover a wider area.

The key is rejection of the music - so finding the PA speakers and then making sure the mic nulls aim that way works best. I'm in the middle of a dance show week at the moment. Four boundaries along the stage edge front - and for some strange reason there is a choir either side. Despite the closeness of the tappers to these, they don't have the reach of the boundaries, so in my case - the boundaries win - however, they are also the furthest from the PA.

My guess, if previous videos have been iffy, is that they just used camera mics, which if the camera is out the front, record the loudest sound - the PA. I like to record the dancers, and then edit in the CD or MD they danced to, this way you get decent sounding audio, with the tap.

Tap actually rates as my most hated dance style, if - as many do - the teacher is into contemporary non-synchronous tap that is a bit like jazz in rhythm. It also makes sync points tricky as the taps don't line up with the music!
 
paulears said:
PCC-160 are a theatrical kind of standard, although the new versions just appearing are a bit different in shape and connection type. However, there are plenty of alternatives and they all have advantages and disadvantages.
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Thanks for the info. Yes, the PA speaker locations might be tricky. If they're stand-mounted I prefer them to be in front of the stage instead of on the stage, just to provide as much physical isolation as possible. Often I've used a monitor on stage (off to the side, pointed across the stage) if the performers can't hear their music from main PA well enough. So that's another source to avoid. I could live with a little bleed as long as the tap was clear.

I was concerned about the noise pickup directly from the floor, but I guess it will depend on the style of dance they have. I'll try a small piece of foam (mouse pad?) under them as you suggested if there's too much pickup from the stage. I'm still working on getting a copy of last year's DVDs to try to see what the problem was and how it can be improved. I suspect you are correct, that it was just recorded off the PA speakers using a camera mic.

It sounds like it might work best to put some PCC's and some cardioids/hypercardioids on the stage and mix them in post depending on which sounds good. I should be able to get a good sync point from an earlier or later group, or run a cable to one of the cameras from the mixer's aux out. But in my mind the key would be to attend a dress rehearsal and do a little experimentation before The Big Day arrives....
 
PerroneFord said:
I am going to play with this some tomorrow. I've got a bunch of Crown PCC_130s and I'll toss in a shotgun as well to see how that sounds.
Click to expand...

If you already have the Crown PCC-130s I don't think I would go out and buy any PCC-160s. If you were talking about needing some distance for recording dialog, that would be a different case. But unless they are tap-dancing on carpet, I don't see why the PCC-130s wouldn't do a perfectly fine job.

Whatever mic you use, you probably want it as close to the floor as possible without hard contact. ElectroVoice used to sell a "Mic Mouse" which was like a big foam wind-screen cut in half. You put the mic (EV RE-635, RE-15, etc.) inside the foam and just laid it on the floor.

I would not expect a shotgun to perform very well for this application. At best maybe a hypercardiod indoors, etc.
 
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