Audio deprived

A

aazz44

New member
Ok, first let me say I know very little about audio. I know how to operate the cameras and shoot, but when it comes to Audio, forget it.

So here is my question.
I own a Canon XH-A1. Im looking for an external Mic for it. I know there are many types and you can spend thousands. Im looking to spend a few hundred. Im looking for a Shotgun Mic, but its hard if not impossible to find one that says its Stereo.

I should mention that I'll be recording all outdoors, both ambiance and things such as railroads.
Which also leads me to another question. Diesel engines can tend to be loud with a lot of BASS.

Are there Mics that are better for a deep sounding BASS?

Also, I would say this Mic will be attached to the Canon XH-A1 99% of the time. I know the camera has Phantom power +48v, will this be an issue in regards to which Mic I should be looking at?

Also, if Im looking at the Rode NTG-2 for a few hundred $$, is it worth it to spend $600 for a better one?

I've been looking at the following myself:
- Rode NTG-2
-Audio-Technica AT897 - Short Condenser Shotgun Microphone
-Fostex MC35 - Electret Condenser Shotgun Microphone

Sorry if Im a bit scatter brained, I just dont know much about this stuff.

Suggestions, Questions, Help.
Mike A.
 
aazz44 said:
Ok, first let me say I know very little about audio. I know how to operate the cameras and shoot, but when it comes to Audio, forget it.
Click to expand...
No worries; we all have to start somewhere.

aazz44 said:
Im looking for a Shotgun Mic, but its hard if not impossible to find one that says its Stereo.
Click to expand...
Shotgun mics, in and of themselves, are mono instruments. Phase-coherent stereo recording can be achieved in a number of ways, most of which involve two or more microphones aligned in very specific configurations. So-called "stereo" microphones are in reality made up of two or more microphone diaphragms built into the same chassis. Stereo shotgun mics are usually made up of a front-facing shotgun microphone and a side facing figure-8 microphone in a coincident Mid-Side (ie. M-S stereo) configuration. As a result, the output of the microphones must be decoded using an M-S matrix before it will play back correctly on a standard stereo setup (ie. decoded into X-Y stereo). Many M-S stereo mic kits include a mic power supply that also decodes the M-S stereo to X-Y. Of course, some stereo mics (eg. Rode NT-4) use other stereo configurations that do not require additional decoding (eg. a 90 degree X-Y pair in the case of the NT-4).

You can actually turn any cardioid, omni or shotgun mic into a stereo mic by adding a figure-8 mic to make it an M-S pair. Of course, the two microphones should be as closely matched as possible in terms of their frequency response, otherwise the tonal character of the stereo image will be rather uneven.

Of course, you could also take two matched shotgun microphones and configure them as an X-Y pair. This is, however, a rather cumbersome and heavy setup, and a bit impractical for on-camera use.

aazz44 said:
Diesel engines can tend to be loud with a lot of BASS.

Are there Mics that are better for a deep sounding BASS?
Click to expand...
There certainly are, although mics with super-flat 20Hz-20kHz responses tend to be rather expensive and not always well-suited to high sound pressure levels. What I like to use for high SPL effects with loads of chest-thumping bass is actually a combination of 3 or more microphones: my standard stereo pair (Sennheiser MKH416/MKH30), with an AKG D112 kick-drum mic running through a 3-channel mixer (MKH416 and D112 panned left, MKH30 panned right, decoded to X-Y after the fact). The D112 is a pretty inexpensive mic that is specifically built for those deep bass frequencies, although it's not terribly sensitive to higher frequencies. Its also a dynamic mic, meaning that it requires no phantom power and can take a huge amount of abuse. I've never used this combo on a diesel engine, but it worked like a charm on the exhaust stack of a 1969 John Deere. Mics like the D112 are great for getting right up into extremely loud things, while the `416/`30 pair is better suited to recording from a more discreet distance.

Its worth mentioning that mics with extremely low frequency responses are rather ill-suited to on-camera or handheld use, since handling noise will be a major issue.
 
Wow! OK, im still trying to take all that in, but I have a few more questions, mainly on meanings and a few Mic opinions.

If the XH-A1 says it has Phantom Power +48V can I use a Mic that is rated at "9V - 52V?

I do have access at a "Sanken CSS-5 Stereo Shotgun Mic". However, mounting it to my camera seems to be an issue, since its not your normal "tube" like shotgun Mic. Also, this Mic has a separate power supply with a 5 pin XLR cable, Im assuming this also does that X/Y encoding to?
My question is, if I by-pass that external power supply and connect it right to my camera via Phantom Power, will that work? Or does it have to go through that external pack for the encoding?

Also, what is Output Impedance?


Should I be looking for a high Impedance or low number?

Now, Im trying to decide between the following Mics. Keeping in mind its going to be mounted on a video camera (Canon XH-A1) most of the time.

-Sanken CS1
-Audio-Technica AT4073A
-Sennheiser ME66/K6P
-Rode NTG-2
-AKG C568

decisions, decisions...

Mike A.
 
Mike,

The AT4073A is has a Polar Pattern "Line + Gradient" what ever that means. All the others have a "Supercardiod"

Is that OK?

Also curious why the "No" on the ME66/KP. I was actually leaning towards that one, but will now rethink it.

Mike A.
 
If you read the top 5 shotguns sticky, you will see that the price/performance on that mic is not good. The best price/performance mics are the rode ntg1 ($250) and the Audio Technica 4073a ($550). The sennheiser 416 is even better, but about $1100 and has a very narrow pattern that does not lend itself to an on camera mic.

You are also going to need some wind protection like a rycote softie (and probably a shockmount that can get the mic up higher when the wind protection is on.

Get Jay Rose's book!

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=102624

Oh ya, you don't normally want to mount the mic on the cam, but you will read all of that in Jay's book right?
 
you can use any of these you mention on your camera
since asmaller is better the sanken and rode are qoit good
40 72 will give you more nerrow pattern , me 66 will give you the most unplesent indoors and hard to mount
the akg is agood mic , better then rode
really doesnt matter as long it on camera
 
wow...did I mention how much I hate sound.

*" Oh ya, you don't normally want to mount the mic on the cam..."*

I've been hearing that a lot lately. I'm curious though, why? I only ask because most of the time I shoot I'm by myself. Always outdoors in the wild or next to the tracks. What am I suppose to do with the Mic if I'm looking through the viewfinder?
I'm open to change if it will make a difference.

Also, now you really have me looking at Mics.

Audio-Technica:
AT835ST
AT4073a
AT897
BP4029

I'm really going nuts here.

Mike A.
 
the at897 is a real pos beater.

Forget stereo

what is the bp4029?

I can't possibly explain why you need to get the mic off the camera adequately in this post. Here are a few things.

1- distance (you want the mic 18"-2' from the subject) look up the inverse square law

2- position, if you mic above and in front of the subject, the background noise is no longer as much of a problem, because it is no longer "behind" the subject

3- read Jay's book!

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=102624
 
The BP4027 is a Stereo Mic but it sounded like it would fit my needs. What do you think?

website:
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/9087c643d6d7530f/index.html

Based on models originally developed for use in the broadcast of the Sydney Olympics in 2000, the BP4027 (14.96" long) and BP4029 (9.29" long) Stereo Shotgun models are engineered for high-end broadcast and production use. Both microphones feature independent line-cardioid and figure-of-eight elements configured in an MS (Mid-Side) arrangement with switch-selectable internal matrixing. These innovative microphones allow sound recordists the choice of selecting a left-right stereo output (wide or narrow) via the microphone’s internal matrixing system or choosing discreet Mid-Side signals for later manipulation, a flexibility not available from any other manufacturer.

A switchable low frequency roll-off filter helps minimize the pickup of unwanted low frequency noise. These phantom-powered models feature a rugged lightweight design and sleek black color scheme, perfect for on-camera use.
  • Designed for broadcasters, videographers and sound recordists
  • Compact, lightweight design is perfect for camera-mount use
  • Independent Line-cardioid and Figure-of-eight condenser elements
  • Switchable low-frequency roll-off
  • Switch selection of non-matrixed M-S mode and two internally-matrixed left/right stereo modes
  • Includes a 0.61 m (24") cable (5-pin XLRF to two standard 3-pin XLRM connectors)
  • RoHS compliant—free from all substances specified in the EU directive on hazardous substances
 
at4073 is the best all around shotgun of the group you listed
CS1 is the shortest so good for keeping out of shot
NTG2 is adequate and cheap since your mounting only mounting on camera.

Don't worry about impedence as long as you are using modern equipment.

Don't worry about bass response, they will all perform adequately there.

As to the stereo mic, what are you trying to record with that?

Since you are audio deprived and want to work alone I think Mike has given you your first step; read Jay's book.

A doctor can tell you the best scalpel to buy but without a lesson or two I wouldn't suggest using it.

Good luck
 
aazz44 said:
What am I suppose to do with the Mic if I'm looking through the viewfinder?
Click to expand...
Let the boom opperator worry about that. Seriously, if you try to wear both hats, you're likely to wind up compromising either the video or the audio (or both). Hire yourself a sound recordist, or record the trains etc. sepperately as sound effects.
 
SMuir said:
Let the boom opperator worry about that. Seriously, if you try to wear both hats, you're likely to wind up compromising either the video or the audio (or both). Hire yourself a sound recordist, or record the trains etc. sepperately as sound effects.
Click to expand...


That really is the best advice.... if want good audio, and you are also concerned about running the camera and looking through the viewfinder, you really should hire a pro ENG/EFP sound person with his/her own gear. Then they can get the perfect sound and you can get the perfect shot.

Sounds like any other route for you is a compromise.

-Vic
 
Certainly a sound guy would be handy - but not sure a boom operator is going to be what he needs for this. He's not trying for dialogue - the fact is by reading Mikes post Im not sure how it will be used in the field.

Mike. Are you just going to do something like frame up a train as it passes etc? Or more to it than that?
 
It sounds to me like he's recording FX and not dialog. If so that would change a few things. First I would go for stereo and I would not use a shotgun. You could set up a stereo pair or just a stereo mic on a stand so it's out of the shot and get some very good recordings. I would be looking at cardioids, maybe the Rode stereo?
This is NOT a good choice for dialog but it doesn't sound like that is what you are doing.
 
Having a sound guy is kind of out. Most of the stuff I do is backpacking in the Sierras and shoot. A lot of the time the camera is stationary on a tripod with some occasional tilts/pans.
Always SFX never dialog.
If im shooting railroad stuff, again the camera is stationary. Mainly picking up the SFX.

Mike A.
 
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