Audio Advice for Man Singing and Playing Stand Up Piano

Are you guys serious? You are lauding the 414 as a great mic as if you know it, but not one person is mentioning the fact that it has switchable pickup patterns and that using the wrong one will be pretty disastrous? Rrrgh!

Tanner, the 414 has switches on the back for pickup pattern, pads, and roll off. There are either four or five pickup patterns available (sorry nit sure, Ive only used the older models)… with symbols for cardioid, hyper, bidirectional, and omni (and maybe wide cardioid). You'll want to either use cardioid to not have to think or experiment much, or use bidirectional for it's better potential isolation (though it's placement is a lot trickier for this).
 
In the placement you're currently considering, think about trying the bidirectional (figure-8) pattern. The trick here is to aim the NULL AXIS of the mic (the plane that includes the top, bottom, and sides, etc) towards the piano. Mind you, this is tricky, as the piano is large... but in the setup you are describing it's possible (no way to know without testing) it may be the best option. Remember, the bidirectional pattern picks up from the front AND back of the mic, but from the sides provides better rejection than any of the mic pickup patterns. Tricky to achieve but greatly useful if you do.

Also, unless your performer is a basso profundo, I'd suggest using the roll-off on the vocal mic.
 
You need to not take these suggestions as what to do but more as a starting point. Every situation is different. So try each mic on the vox and decide for yourself which is better. Then move the mic around at different pickup points on the upright. Just find the best sound you can.
 
As if I know it? hmm ok... only owned 4 x C414EB 2x C414TLII as well as a C414 BuLS ... over the last 25 years.. yeah I know I know it very well.

but you are correct, for this it should be used in cardioid mode for best results. without a more controlled environment figure 8 can be disastrous.
 
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Oops. (red-faced smiley here).

Yes, I would go with cardioid for simplicity.

My only excuse, U, is that I've been responding and editing from my iPod all day, and it is tedious, but that was obviously an important thing to point out.



GJ
 
Yes I know the frustration of starting a post on the tiny screen and realizing it's taking far mire time than it should (or that you can spend). Usually happens the minute I want to edit something!
 
Tanner Almon said:
Unfortunately another constraint is that I'll have an hour and a half to set up the cameras, sound, and lighting equipment (not to mention a bit of set decoration). Trust me, I'd prefer to spend a whole day at the location beforehand, but it's just not a possibility. I've asked and it's just not going to happen.
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Tanner, you're new to all this, so any testing you can do will help you to learn a bit about techniques and equipment. You don't need to be in the space, or have the actual performer. Find any upright piano and anyone who can sing and play (or talk and bang). No offense to anyone here, but the NT1A vs. the C414 in cardioid mode is not a significant difference in this situation; and even the difference between either of those and any other cardioid mic is a lot less significant than any skill you can pick up in mic placement. Spend some time experimenting before the gig, with any equipment you can get your hands on, and you'll be better and quicker when you go set up for the gig. You are the most important element here, not the equipment. Make you as good as you can be before you go in.

Keep in mind, if you're looking for stand-ins, that a real performer will sing and play a lot louder than someone who just dabbles.

Another alternative is to find someone (lots of willing folks here on 'User) to help you out. Especially given the short amount of setup time you'll have in an unfamiliar place. Find someone who knows what they're doing and is reliable, and meet beforehand.
 
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I just wanted to send big virtual high-five's to all of you kind & smart folks who helped me record amazing audio at my piano shoot a few days ago! Seriously, it sounds amazing, and I couldn't have done it without all of the generous advice offered up in this thread. Thank you so much!

For anyone who may be curious, I had exactly an hour and a half to set up three cameras, dress a set, light, and set up the audio. The audio setup that I ended up going with was as follows...

1. Moved Upright Piano to the center of the room
2. Set up Rode NT1-A facing the center of the back of the piano. It was about a foot and a half away.
3. Set up the AKG about two feet away from the singers mouth. I went with the cardiod setting, which to my ears sounded great. That being said, I didn't have time to test the other settings.
4. I ran both mics into my zoom H4N, and adjusted the level of each mic independently of the other.

Anyway, once I get these edited I'll post a few of them here (I recorded 27 songs). I'm sure you guys will notice several problems, but to my ears it sounds absolutely beautiful, and I'm one hundred percent sure that the client will love it. I think I really was able to separate the voice from the piano quite nicely, and I owe it all to all you awesome folks who generously shared your knowledge here.

Thanks again everyone! Seriously, I don't know how to thank you, you really saved the day for me!

Cheers!
Tanner
 
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That's great... I've been wondering about dynamics in certain live video situations. At high sound pressure levels, it might be a better choice than a condenser. You've got some good, simple-system audio there. Are you saying the mike was camera-mounted as well?

GJ
 
cutclip said:
I've been using a single SURE SM 57 on My Camera and been getting remarkable results for live music...

check it out yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p5XS3qEa1M&feature=channel_video_title
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No offense intended but sorry, that's not "remarkable results" unless you mean remarkably bassy. The whole thing is out of balance and lead guitar is completely missing. There's more to music than drums and a bass line. Would be okay for a clip covering the event being shown on the local news but just wouldn't cut it as a concert video or promo for the band.
 
Perhaps by "remarkable," he meant, "good, clean, useable; relatively free from distortion." That's what I meant when I said "good."

It's unlikely that he meant "perfect, pristine; mixed and balanced in a wholly professional way that substitutes an SM57 for an audio team, many years of on-the-job experience and a gear list worth 20X as much..." Although he might have, it's just unlikely.

GJ
 
I think what Steve is saying has nothing to do with expense, and everything to do with experience… which is exactly what cutclip is trying to provide. The audio is not what anyone should strive for or call "remarkable". It would be sad if our standards dropped so low that "free of clipping distortion" is "remarkable".

Perhaps a better phrasing would be, "a reasonable option when a one-man operation is just plugging one mic into the camera and standing so close to the stage that there's no chance of properly catching the gestalt of the sound". I don't mean this negatively… it's not am uncommon situation and often the sound is a lot worse than this. It just isn't remarkable, especially on the context of this thread which is focused on getting a good sound balance in a (albeit imperfect) studio situation.
 
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ullanta said:
I think what Steve is saying has nothing to do with expense, and everything to do with experience… which is exactly what cutclip is trying to provide. The audio is not what anyone should strive for or call "remarkable". It would be sad if our standards dropped so low that "free of clipping distortion" is "remarkable".

Perhaps a better phrasing would be, "a reasonable option when a one-man operation is just plugging one mic into the camera and standing so close to the stage that there's no chance of properly catching the gestalt of the sound". I don't mean this negatively… it's not am uncommon situation and often the sound is a lot worse than this. It just isn't remarkable, especially on the context of this thread which is focused on getting a good sound balance in a (albeit imperfect) studio situation.
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Exactly. The footage in question would be perfectly fine for a news story about the event where a reporter is going to be talking over the clip anyway but I would not consider it acceptable for a remote broadcast or a video of the concert where the music is the essence of the program. And for what it's worth I've heard lots worse
 
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