Audio Advice for Man Singing and Playing Stand Up Piano

Tanner Almon

Tanner Almon

Member
Hello everyone,

I have a shoot coming up in a few days where I will be shooting a man singing and playing Christmas songs on a stand up piano. It's a series of How-To videos, so he will be be talking in addition to singing. He will definitely be playing the piano at the same time that he is singing, and probably a bit when he is talking as well.

Here is the equipment I have access to...

One Zoom H4n
One Sennheiser MKH 416 Shotgun Microphone
One Rode NT1-A Condenser Microphone

I realize that this is not an ideal audio setup, however, it's all that I have to work with. There is absolutely no budget for renting equipment.

If anyone has any advice as to how I can get the most out of what I have I'd really, really appreciate it! I'm thinking that I'll record 4 channels, one with each mic, and the other two using the Zoom itself. My biggest concern is where to place and aim each microphone, as well as the zoom itself. Also, any suggestions as to the ideal levels to record at would be appreciated.

If it helps I'll be shooting in an loft style apartment in Brooklyn, I doubt that the room is very big.

Thanks in advance for any advice anyone may have. I realize that my setup is far from ideal, but so long as you can hear what he is saying while the piano is playing I think the client will be happy. They realize it's by no means a professional audio setup.

Cheers!
Tanner
 
My understanding is that you are going to videotape the man talking/singing while playing the piano - right?

The big challenge to you is to separate vocal from piano. If you can record them separately, there won't be much difficulty left, problem solved.

If not, your equipment may not be good enough to achieve a decent separation. NT1-A is a decent mic for either vocal or piano. I suggest you use it for piano, otherwise it'd look cumbersome in front of the man's face in video, once you put up a pop filter (well, this may or may bother your client though). But your shotgun mic? How useful is it? I suggest you get an inexpensive cardioid dynamic vocal mic (such as SM58, current price for a brand new = $99 - $10 rebate = $89 + possible tax/shipping) for vocal. Without a vocal mic, you'd have to experiment to see how to make use of your shotgun, but I strongly doubt it will sound good with a piano behind/around it in a not very big room. Alternatively, you could use H4n to record piano and NT1-A for vocal, just so that you make use of only what you already have. But how to separate vocal from H4n's recording will remain your big challenge. As far as I know, H4n is only good for recording rehearsals, where quality is typically no big deal, but it can hardly deliver professional results if audio to be recorded is more than just ambient sounds or if you need to separate voices cleanly from background sounds (piano in this case).

If your piano is digital, you could record it using its digital out to your H4n and then just try to record a clean vocal with your NT1-A or 416, problem solved.

In the official manual for NT1-A, you can find some recording tips from Rode, including (classic only?) pianos.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for the thorough reply Henry.

Yes, I will definitely be videotaping the man while he talks and sings. And yes, I unfortunately have to record piano and vocals at the same time.

Unfortunately I doubt that I'll be able to spring for even a cheap cardioid vocal mic. I think ultimately I'll end up playing around with the shot gun mic for the vocals.

I do have two quick questions for you, if you don't mind...

1. Just out of curiosity, would the SM58 do a better job of blocking out the sound of the piano than a shotgun mic? I've always been under the impression that shotguns do the best at blocking out background noise, however, my knowledge of audio is admittedly very poor.

2. If I use the NT1-A to record the sound of the piano, do you know the best place to place it?

The piano is definitely not digital.

Thanks again for the kind reply. I really appreciate it.

Best,
Tanner
 
you might be just better off experimenting with the Rode on a stand in front of both finding the spot that has the right balance ( just like they used to record in the old days).

if the room you're in is very echo-y the shotgun will just add alot of echo you dont want and will just complicate things in post.

considering your limited resources and lack of availability of other options your best and simplest choice is to find the sweet spot with the Rode.
 
Thanks recordingwhiz!

Let's say I bite the bullet and order something like the SM58, would a combo of that and the NT1-A give me a much better recording than if I was to find the sweet spot with the NT1-A?

Also, in terms of finding the sweet spot with the NT1-A, any suggestions as to where you think a good place to start in terms of mic placement would be much appreciated. For example, would a good starting point be the mic facing downwards toward the piano keys close to the talent's mouth?

Thanks again everyone!
 
1) SM58: if you have it face away from the piano and have it almost touch the man's mouth, you can record a loud voice to "hide" the piano sound. Ideally, a hyper cardioid mic would work better, but I don't know any good hyper mic that goes as inexpensive as a popular pro-grade vocal mic like SM58.

If you use a shotgun mic in this situation, it will most likely give you a big trouble because it will inevitably pick up a lot of low frequency sounds from the piano as well as from the walls and ceiling. All such sounds are distorted versions of their original sound waves, and will be added to the voice recorded.

2) As pianos come with a variety of shapes and acoustic characteristics, there is no single best placement for mic. I believe you'll have to go through trial and errors. A standard piano can have up to 88 keys, For a single mic to cover such a large sound source, you may very well need to keep a good enough distance.

It's very easy to capture the sound of a piano, given how loud it typically is. But it's very difficult to reproduce the beauty of the sound. Good luck to you!
 
Thanks Henry, much appreciated. I had no idea about the low frequency pickup that I'd likely get with the shotgun. It looks like my two choices are...

a) Do my best to make it all happen with the NT1-A

b) Go to B&H and shell out $90 for the SM58

I guess my question is...

If I am able to find the sweet spot with the NT1-A, how would it compare to using both the SM58 and the NT1-A. Would the difference be night and day? Or two close to call for someone watching this on the internet (which is where it will ultimately end up).

Thanks again everyone,
Tanner
 
unless you want the guy on video singing into a stage mic you're better off with just the rode.

I realy think the addition of the Shure would just complicate things with additional problems such as phase cancellation.

Then you have other thing you dont know how to fix in post.

Keep it simple.

Place the mic approxx 36" or so high on a stand or as short as a regular stand will go and have the mic facing the presenters head at about 2' or so making a triangle between him the mic and the piano, as he faces the camera. be sure to monitor or make test runs to make sure you have the right balance.
do all you can to make the room be the least reflective you can by placing moving blankets comforters whatever will kill echo.

since you are limited in the selection of tools as well as limited by the location, dont add complexity to the issue. think of the way you have seen old piano singers singing into the mic to the side from back in the day before they used booms this should pickup the voice well and the bleed from the piano should be the right level.

experiment with the location but that should be a decent starting point, keep in mind the Rode is a great mic for this app, not to mention it will look way more presentable than a SM58 for a presentation video.

good luck
 
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There are more basic questions you need to ask… and we need, to provide an answer. What style of music will the talent be playing? Can they and are they willing to control the dynamic range of the piano to help you out? Ditto for voice. What's a stand-up piano… do you mean an upright? Or will the performer be standing (which would be strange). I'd the focus of the video on the playing or on the voice? Does the performer really know how to work a mic? What's being demonstrated?

The answers to these questions will tell us what part of the audio needs to be prioritized, and what techniques will work with the particular setup.

If buying a mic, I'd strongly suggest a headworn mic for this situation. Shure makes a dynamic headworn mic that stays in place well that costs about the same as an SM58. Unless you have a lot of equipment to try different mounting and shockmouunting options AND your performer really knows how to work a mic while playing, another mic will be unlikely to give a good result.
 
You won't be able to keep the piano out of the vocal mic. You could use a head mic, but why bother? People will expect to see a "normal" vocal mic so why try to hide it?

I recomend micing the piano from the back in the middle with the back of the piano facing into the room. You shouldn't have phase issues between the vocal and piano mics because one will be picking up the piano from the back and one from the front. That should make them different enough so it probably won't be an issue. Listen through headphones while you mic it up to be sure.

Mic up the singer and have him play and sing while you mic the back while you listen through headphones. Play with the piano mic position and find the best spot. Don't be afraid to try pulling it away from the piano a foot or two. "If it sounds right, it is right."

If you're still concerned about keeping the piano out of the vocal mic, keep this in mind. They used to record hit songs with all the band members in the same room with multiple mics all playing at the same time. They didn't prevent mic bleed, they used it.

And if you can't afford to buy, rent. You can probably rent a better mic cheaper.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone, I really appreciate the help!

Recordingwhiz, I like your idea of "keep it simple". That's definitely my goal. I'm still a bit unclear as to how to place the mic. Are you saying the NT1-A should be positioned between the keys and the man's face, angled up away from the keys facing towards his mouth? It looks like you are saying it should be about two feet away from the man's mouth, is that correct? If that's the case would I be placing it over the top of the upright piano, as opposed to between the mouth and the keys? If I have time I'll try drawing a few diagrams and maybe you can let me know if I'm on the right track?

Also, I do have a few furni-pads, I'll do my best to place them around the room if possible.

Ullanta, the style of the music is classic christmas carols. Also, yes, it is an upright piano. I'm sure the talent will work with me the best he can in terms of his voice and dynamic range the best he can. I've never met him but have been told that he is an experienced performer and piano player.

The primary thing being demonstrated is how to play these songs on a piano, so I plan on having one wide profile shot of the man sitting at the piano singing and talking into the camera, and then a second camera shooting a birds eye POV of the keyboard.

I admittedly do not have a great deal of equipment, however, I can say with certainty that a headworn mount will not be an option. Thank you for the tip though!

Thanks again everyone!
tanner
 
If the headworn mic is definitely out I'd say then the one-mic approach might be best bet… but placement of that mic in a way that gets good sound without being too intrusive to the video might be tricky. If you're willing to have a big intrusive mic in the picture, I'd suggest you could also stand the headworn!

The reason? If someone is singing, playing the piano, and addressing the camera, it's pretty unlikely (read: impossible) that any vocal mic placement will have it be useful for everything… the head will be turning 90 degrees, and moving closer and farther from the mic during playing. A headworn mic is the only way to get consistent levels and useful isolation in a situation like this. Having s separate track with the voice consistent and somewhat isolated makes the audio editing much easier.

Mainly, though, you need a lot of time to test. Can you set up a sound test session before the recording session, to give yourself a chance to experiment, listen back, and adjust, without worrying about tiring out the performer for the recording? Time may be the one thong that's free for you in gbis case, and it's indeed the most important thing, so take advantage.
 
Thanks ullanta.

Unfortunately another constraint is that I'll have an hour and a half to set up the cameras, sound, and lighting equipment (not to mention a bit of set decoration). Trust me, I'd prefer to spend a whole day at the location beforehand, but it's just not a possibility. I've asked and it's just not going to happen.

Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's advice thus far. You have all given me some great ideas on how to work with what I've got, which is great, I'd assumed I'd just get a lot of "it's impossible without spending money on better equipment". Thank you for keeping the advice within my constraints!

Most importantly, I now have a game plan for sound going in, not to mention a few back up plans, so thanks again everyone. Seriously, all of this advice has been more valuable than you can imagine!

Cheers!
Tanner
 
So to further complicate matters, I now have access to an additional microphone, an AKG 414B-XLS.

So, in total I have the following equipment...

1. Zoom H4N
2. Rode NT1-A
3. AKG - 414B - XLS
4. Sennheiser MKH-416

Right now I'm thinking maybe the AKG for the vocals, and the NT1-A for the piano. However, many of you have mentioned it may be best to just try to get it all with one mic. With the addition of the AKG, does one mic still seem like the way to go?

With my two mic plan right now, I'm thinking I'll have the Rode behind the piano, and the AKG somewhere near the talents mouth. Would the AKG, or NT1-A for that matter, have to be right on the talents mouth? Ideally I'd like it not to be right in front of his mouth for these videos, if possible.

Any advice would be much appreciated!

Best,
Tanner
 
The AKG 414 changes everything indeed. I'd go with the 414 on vocals, and the Rode on piano as you described. You could try the shotgun or the Zoom stereo mikes for ambience to mix in, but in the end you may find those tracks unusable.You could try booming the AKG overhead on a stationary boom stand (you'll probably need sandbags or other counterweights to hold the mike and stand in-place), if you really want the vocal mike out of the shot. But be prepared for lots more of the piano sound in the vocal track. The closer you can get the mike, the better, but we have successfully boomed shots in-studio using cardioid condensers. The 414 is an outstanding choice; good score.GJ
 
Tanner. congrats on the addition of the AKG, these are great mics. The two mic setup is your best bet for clear sound. here is what I would do:

place the 414 on a stand at the height of the talents mouth when sitting at the piano. if he will be facing the camera then put the mic about 2 feet or so in front of them in the direction of the camera or which ever way he will be singing (not between him and piano) this way they will be facing the mic as they sing. This should give you fairly good recording of vocals as well as some of the piano.

The micing of the piano is a different story. it really depends on the piano as to what is the best position for the microphone, you might be able to lift the lid a bit to project better and put the Rode on a boom to pick this up at the opening (here it will take some experimentation) at least this way youll have the option to add more piano if necessary, however you may have to deal with phasing issues (this is why I recommend using only one mic when you aren't as experienced) but you got two good mics so use them but count mainly on one and use the other to add if necessary.

Make sure that you can monitor on good headphones what the balance is and move mics accordingly, even if you have to record some fake takes to verify and be able to listen while the piano is not being played in the same room.

for this I would deff forget about using any shotgun , they will just confuse the issue and more than likely not bring anything positive to the party.

however be sure to acoustically deaden the space as much as possible with moving blankets, carpets and things like that, so long as you don't see them in frame.

This technique is not much different that what was used in the big studios to record a lot of classic singer recordings.
 
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Thanks recordingwhiz, I'm bringing several furni pads and C-stands along to deaden the space as much as humanly possible.

One quick question... would you recommend that the AKG face up or down? For reference, for me "up" means that the XLR port is facing down.

Thanks so much for all of you amazing help!
-Tanner
 
Re: The AKG, it doesn't matter, as long as the "front" (the side with the pick-up pattern symbol) is facing the performer.If I were you, I wouldn't worry about the lid on the upright; I'd put the Rode behind the piano, pointed at the sound board (the backside of the piano, which will be the "front" as far as the camera is concerned, if I've understood you correctly).You obviously have a plethora of advice to choose from in this thread. The important thing will be to get good, usable takes quickly, as it sounds like you won't have much time for set-up or experimentation.GJ
 
Thanks Gregg (and everyone else) for the great advice! Since time will not be on my side, my game plan is as follows...

I'm going to start out with AKG between the talent and the primary camera, facing the talent from about two feet. I'll position the Rode behind the back of the piano, probably about two feet. I'll then do a few tests and adjust each accordingly.

Thanks for all of your help everyone. One day I'll post the results here, for better or worse!
 
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