At what point does a half day become a full one?

mainstreetprod

mainstreetprod

Veteran
Today I shot a job that included interiors, exteriors and local amenities of an apartment complex. I quoted half day and day rates when signing up with the company to do this. I think they consider this a half day job , but today's job ended up taking 7.5 hours, exclusive of drive time to and from the job. Is it appropriate to charge a full days rate?
(Last job I did for them took 10 hours , so it was more clear what to charge)
 
Yeah, 5 hours sounds about right. 7 1/2 is definitely not a half-day.

Some people don't do half-day rates but are happy to work half days :thumbsup:

.
 
1 minute past five hours. You can offer grace (for a few minutes) but be careful that it is not abused.
 
I try not to do half days except for clients that give me a ton of work. A cold call asking for a half day just say NO. BUT I have learned never say never especially in this recession. Thankfully I haven't had to do half days.
 
Thanks very much guys for clarifying - I figured it had to be a lot closer to 8 hours to be considered a full day. If the client whines about the cost , too bad.
 
I'm with the guys who don't do half days. Because if you book a "half day", you're not going to be able to book another "half day" and turn it into a full day.

Under five hours, portal to portal, half-day if you must. 5:01, that's a full day. Put the responsibility on them; if they want the lower rate, they better move heaven and earth to make sure that they're done on time. If they run over, they'd better pay for it.
 
I'm keeping very busy here shooting and editing but don't turn down half days. I would much rather do the half day - at 2/3rds the day rate - than no billable work. If times are slow then every bit helps. If times are busy I've got a business to run and there are always some tasks to take care of to fill out the day. And don't forget that if you don't do it someone else will, and if that guy is good he'll likely get the call when the full day shoot comes along next time.

And as for the original question, yes five hours - but if it takes 5:17 to get the production right so what? Attitudes like 5:00 sharp can be a good way to spoil a relationship which is what you really need to be developing. Your 7.5 hr day is a no-brainer that your client can't possibly complain about, especially in a world where the 8 hr workday is the norm.

And then there's the question of how did we get into this 10 hr shift situation in the first place?
 
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BVX said:
I would much rather do the half day - at 2/3rds the day rate - than no billable work. If times are slow then every bit helps.
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Agreed. I will push for full days only, but I can tell with certain clients that the work needed will only take 3-5 hours... I don't feel that I can justify a full days rate to them when I'm only working half of that.

I don't do half of my day rate, I do a 2/3, which encourages them to add more to the day and get better bang for their buck by hiring me for a full day :grin:
 
BVX said:
And don't forget that if you don't do it someone else will, and if that guy is good he'll likely get the call when the full day shoot comes along nerxt time.
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By THAT logic I should just edit for $15/hr. like all of the other schmoes on Craigslist then.
 
The problem is not doing shorter days it's allowing the client to control the negotiation by using "day rate" as a basis for describing the duration of your services. In theory a "Day" is 24 hours long but we all know "work days" now turned into 10 and sometimes 12 hours for some productions.

Don't do flat rates it's as simple as that.

I'll occasionally do shorter increments but my Deal Memo is based on an hourly rate plus kit rental.

For Steadicam it' $125 an hour, 8 hour minimum plus kit rental. OT hours 8-12 x 1.5, 12+ 2x.

Sometimes if I want to fill a day, help a friend / student or the shoot / shots / DP interests me I'll do shorter days with a minimum of four hours. That time is not "portal to portal" but does include my load-in / load-out time.

As soon as it looks like we'll go over I simply tell the client we need to watch our time because I don't want them to go over budget. Then it's their choice as to whether we go over or not but I'm still getting paid if we do. Plus, when they know you're hourly they have a much greater sense of urgency to get you in and out.

As for kit rental on shorter shoots, I'll do 60% of my kit rental until we exceed five hours then it goes to the full day rate.

There's nothing wrong with partial day work unless you let it go wrong.

If you go to dinner and initially decide to have just an entree but add dessert later it's not like the restaurant owes you dessert for free.

Robert
 
Easily solved; without definition a day or half-day makes no sense. Charge hourly + kit portal to portal.

Example: 4hr job + 1hr travel: 5hrs work * rate + kit rate = customer pays.
 
If a client insists a shoot will only be 1/2 day, then it's 60% rate up to 4 hrs. After that, it's $100/hr till 10 hrs, which ends up being more expensive than if they had just booked me at my full day rate to begin with. There needs to be a penalty for going for a full day when booking for a 1/2 day, otherwise it would be in producers' best interest to always book 1/2 days when they know a full one is in order.
 
I do do half days, but its not half price - its 75% full day rate.

And whilst we are on taking jobs at lower rates. Sent a quote out last night, response this morning. We have someone who can do it for half the price. I get this weekly. Those poor suckers can take it for half the rate. Granted I could get more work if I took all the low rate stuff, but I figure why earn 15% more after tax and have to work 50% more.
 
Depends on the Client.

Having a "one size fits all' approach is not very wise.

There is a massive difference between Corporate, Weddings and Agency jobs. You have to handle them all differently and be wise in your approach to each.

Weddings and such is a quote with nudging and prodding for more service.
Corporate is a matter of doing homework to find out how much they actually have for the project and setting your pricing cleverly.
Agency and Cinematic is kinda standard rates most of the time because they generally use agents.
Your goal is word of mouth, so make sure you do everything in your power to stimulate it without being a douche.

No-one asked for any advice so be warned that below are some thoughts.


You have a fee that you need to earn to survive and most corporates want the cheapest solution at industry standard quality.
I've been freelance and I've been corporate. herewith some tips.

If your clients are specifically corporate, below is the pricing strategy that worked for me. it also stimulated excellent word of mouth because they all felt they were getting a bargain.

Seeing Wilbur Eddings is not my real name, I can give you some tips of what i used to do when I was freelance. Stop reading now if you are sensitive to aggressive business practice. heh heh.
I Made good money and my clients always felt like they got a FAT bargain. ;)

1) Have an inflated rate card with built in 'discount' structures.
In other words, "I usually charge $400 a day, but times are tough/I like you/I want the business so I'll do it for $200". (Where your standard rate is $180 etc.).

Make sure that your 'half day' is what you actually want to earn for a full day. - Do it like this:
"I usually charge x for a full day (inflate) or half x for a half day but I have a special offer where I take pressure off the client by charging (actual amount you want for a full day) regardless. This way you (the client) don't have to worry about an hour or two overtime ."

It is upfront communication and a a safety net for the client. What they should perceive you saying is: "You are in danger of paying more than you want to but here's a way out" - without threatening or intimidating.

Your goal is to make a fair amount of $ for your work but always leave your clients feeling like they got a nice discount/bargain. That way they call you again because "Filmboy Inc. usually charges a billion bucks but they give us massive discounts!".
It's a very psychological game. Especially if your work is very good!

2) Give your client the choice of "one price for the whole job" or "per hour billing". No-one likes surprises at the end of a job (ala per hour billing) and everyone likes a bargain. "I charge $300 a day or $70 an hour. The discount structure in my per-day price is because i want my client not to have to worry about running overtime and also to give me the confidence to commit to an entire day in case of emergencies or technical glitches to your job".

3) Always bring more gear than you need. I got humiliated by a client once because my camera did not 'look' professional. hahaha.
i finally figured out that he had once been on a film set and thought that all video and audio production should look like that.
Your presentation is very important. look the part, dress the part, dress your equipment yup like it's prom night. That way your competition all look like wannabes becuase they don't look 'professional'. A Mattebox and rails, new fangled audio equipment setup gets you handing out business cards like they're beer flavored nipples! Got a Jib and tracks lying at the house? Set it up in a corner somewhere at the event for 'added value'. "I'm running a special this week where I do a cinematic Jibbing action across your family, it's included in our negotiated price and I know how much your event means to you so I'd like to make it a bit more special". Yeah baby, get those business cards ready!

4) Number 3 brings in more business than you will realize.

5) Corporates are all about the image. Beard and cap on a DP and no-one speaks to the Director. "DP looks more like a filmmaker". It's really dumb but thats Corporate. They crunch numbers, you crunch pixels, your job is waaaay cooler and they know it. Work it baby! Be quick to explain what the lens does and never look irritated when they ask you questions. Back in my arrogant Creative Director days, I would hire film crews for TVC's based on how pro they looked and got rid of those that showed me up in front of my clients. Creative Directors are dicks, but that dick puts bread and butter on your table.

6) I'm obviously in a chatty mood.

7) Learn big words. Zooms and Primes and Stops sound a lot cooler than 'that lens over there'.

8) Wear deodorant and make sure your sneakers don't smell. Film crews are on their feet a lot and forget that Corporates are not used to "the dorm effect". For some reason, Corporates and Agency love to gossip about the povertous film crews. Give them ammo for gossip for how cool you are, not how tough the industry is going. On that note:

9) Your client doesn't give a rats ass how tough your business is. they want bang for their buck and you're it. Success attracts success so stop whining about who stiffed you on the last job and how hungry your kids are. Your client has worries of his own and he/she hired you to solve one of them. Make your clients life easier not harder and he/she will do the same for you. I hire champions, not whiners. These days most clients are trying to pay salaries, rent and all sorts of other costs. be an asset, not an ass.

10) Um. Thats it methinks. All the above information was gained through catastrophic failure. I have tested it all and it is true. (Especially the stinky sneakers one).


11) Dammit, but I talk a lot.
 
Noel Evans said:
I do do half days, but its not half price - its 75% full day rate.

And whilst we are on taking jobs at lower rates. Sent a quote out last night, response this morning. We have someone who can do it for half the price. I get this weekly. Those poor suckers can take it for half the rate. Granted I could get more work if I took all the low rate stuff, but I figure why earn 15% more after tax and have to work 50% more.
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lol.. it took me an hour to type out what you just said in one paragraph.
:furious3:

Clever dude!
 
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