Astra 6X v Astra 4X

@ JPNola

As Lenny already said, "You can always gel the daylight units to tungsten". Takes about 10 seconds with a piece of gaffer tape to hold it in place. And as you suggest, I carry a couple of dimmable daylight LED bulbs for putting into practicals . . . whenever practicial. But even that is very rare and is not my first approach when presented with a mixed situation.

BTW, I didn't say I never shoot with a tungsten white balance. I said I had no need for bi-color lights. Why? Because they typically cost more to buy, don't have the equivalent output of a daylight only model of the same light, and I find the fake tungsten output to not look very good on faces. I'd rather just have daylight only on all the lights. Several of my lights, inlcluding my Astra Soft, are bi-color because that is the only way they are sold. But when I have the choice, such as with the 4X and 6X, I only want daylight balanced and have never regretted that decision once.

I'm surprised at how my rejection of tungsten balanced LEDs has really riled a few people up. It's like they are taking it as a personal insult or something. Hey, it's not like I have the power to force you to do what I'm doing. If you want tungsten or bi-color LEDs feel free to use them. They just aren't for me.
 
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Doug, what models of LED lights have you used such that you determined the tungsten colors from LEDs look poor? Some LEDs have better tungsten rendition than others, so it might be a bit presumptuous to make a blanket statement about tungsten LEDs unless you've used many different popular and current models. Cineo for example is known for having better color rendition than the competition.


From B&H's specs page, the Astra 6x Daylight is 6612 lux @ 5.0', costs $1,235.00, and the Astra 6x Bi-color is 6330 lux @ 5.0', costs $1425. So according to that, the Bi-color costs $190 more and is 282 less lux @ 5.0' (about 4% less bright). I'd say that loss of light is pretty negligible, and $190 isn't much to pay for the bi-color feature. Some bi-color LEDs do have a 50% loss of light at tungsten or daylight, but not Litepanels, so you're not really gaining much by going with a daylight only version.

Even if you don't like how tungsten looks on faces, I personally often use one or two of my Astras as background lights where having bi-color to change the background color can be quite useful. I was on a shoot just a few days ago where we did that, having the key and fill lights at 3200k and the background lights at 5600k to give a blue background. Later on that shoot for another setup we were filming with daylight coming through windows onto the subject's face, so the key and fill had to be 5600k. Director then asked, can we get a blue background on the background lights again? We said we'd need to gel the lights since they couldn't go past 5600k (if they were RGB or such and could go up to say 8000k then we would have been good to go). Director responded unsurprisingly saying, "We don't have enough time for that; let's roll." And that's the crux of the matter, having bi-color and RGB enables you to change colors quickly where you otherwise often would have settled for not even bothering due to time constraints, and thus often results in lighting that is closer to what you and the client want.
 
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Eric, sounds like you have found the perfect lights that work for you. That's the beauty of today's marketplace, there are solutions that fit the needs of everyone.
 
JPNola said:
Or for anyone taking the course you teach on lighting.
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Yes, absolutely true.

I'm not a hypocrite. I'm not going to teach people at my workshops techniques or use gear that I wouldn't use myself. Why would I waste time doing that? There are many ways to skin a cat but I have found the methods that work for me, that is what I am passionate about, and that is what I enjoy teaching to other people who want to achieve similar results; with similar gear; with no crew to help; and with only 20-30 minutes to setup. That does not mean there aren't other valid ways of lighting an interview -- but as I said -- those other ways are not for me. It would be stupid to take a class from someone (cooking, photography, writing, painting, actining, music, lighting, etc.) and expect him/her to use tools that he does not use himself or show how to do things he doesn't do himself. That is not why people come to learn from me at my workshops and that is not why clients hire me to shoot for them. I bring my own personal gear to my workshops so I have the tools I actually use on a daily basis, and that gear has not changed very much since I went 100% LED many years ago. I know I don't need bi-color or tungsten lights because I have never needed them up to this point. And besides all that, more and more practical lights that you run into on location are daylight balanced anyway. In case you haven't noticed, 3200K lighting is dying quick, even for non-video purposes.
 
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Doug Jensen said:
I'm surprised at how my rejection of tungsten balanced LEDs has really riled a few people up. It's like they are taking it as a personal insult or something. Hey, it's not like I have the power to force you to do what I'm doing. If you want tungsten or bi-color LEDs feel free to use them. They just aren't for me.
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I choose to keep tungsten in my repertoire. I don't reject any type of lighting unit out of hand.

I think it was less that you rejected use of tungsten balanced LEDs and more that you rejected tungsten lighting writ large. And suggested that there are no LED units that do not look "fake" when operating at 3200k. That made it sound as if anyone using tungsten-balanced LEDs is doing lighting that looks "fake". And made it sound as if you think yourself better than anyone using tungsten-balanced LED's. I've seen plenty of tungsten LED's used on feature films and the quality of many tungsten LEDs ( for example, "LiteMat" LEDs ) is in no way problematic or "fake" looking when executed well. The art of lighting is, in itself, "fakery" in that we are often attempting to "fake" natural light or fake practical lighting that would likely exist. Often, lighting a scene or even an interview is, in that sense, the art of deception. We hide lights and attempt to fake-out the viewer into not perceiving a lit scene as being lit.

The more tools at one's disposal the better, I say. The notion that there are no LED lights that can produce quality light at lower color temps is a bit 2012. The technology has advanced to where that is no longer the case.
 
Well, I'm sorry if my opinion offends you in some way. I stand by what I have written and how I actually work in the real world. I am not standing in your way of of doing things however you choose -- so do whatever you feel is best. Not once in this thread have I suggested what you should think or how you should work. I'm not stopping you from doing anything you want. And, by the way, there is plenty of lighting equipment and techniques that I will certainly reject out of hand for shooting interviews if someine cares about quality results. But I won't go into details here because it would only lead to more arguing and I don't really care what someone uses one way or another. You can use Lowel Tota lights with umbrellas or Kino-Flo flourescents for all I care about what someone else does. if the shot looks good and can be setup in the allotted time, that is all that matters in the end.
 
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Doug, I looked up your equipment list and see you have 15 Litepanel lights, as well as tungsten lights. So, I gather your comments regarding Tungsten lighting quality are mostly related to Litepanels, since you did not answer my question regarding your experience with other models of LED lights. If that is the case, I would suggest you clarify your condemnation of Tungsten LED colors to be within the ones you have worked with, instead of making blanket statements on the matter when there are many manufacturers out there who produce better colors which you may not have experience with. Litepanels has never been known for having the best colors, though their Astra lights are pretty well regarded colorwise among current LEDs.

I also noted you own Sony cameras and Sony cameras need all the help they can get to get good colors. :P Sort of joking, but not fully; I have heard cases of Sony cameras seeing green spikes in lights which other cameras did not, for example. I have some LEDs which look a bit green to my eye, but when looking at the LCD on my C300 Mark II, the colors looked fine, with no more green being there; at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how a light's color looks, it matters how it looks in the camera and finished product. So, it's possible that could have an effect on how you see Tungsten lights. Though, I know Run&Gun uses the F55 as well and he seems pretty happy with his Astras.

There was a recent test done with many different LEDs, and if I recall rightly, the first thing they got wrong on the test was using a Red camera, as Red is not known for having the best colors. Of course, ideally a light would work well with all cameras.


Doug Jensen said:
It would be stupid to take a class from someone (cooking, photography, writing, painting, actining, music, lighting, etc.) and expect him/her to use tools that he does not use himself or show how to do things he doesn't do himself.
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Are you saying one needs more than a Bachelor's degree to teach Sex Ed?


Doug Jensen said:
I bring my own personal gear to my workshops so I have the tools I actually use on a daily basis, and that gear has not changed very much since I went 100% LED many years ago. I know I don't need bi-color or tungsten lights because I have never needed them up to this point.
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LED lighting technology has changed a lot in the past few years. I bought my Astras just a year and a half ago and already they've been updated to the 6x's which are 1.5 times as bright. Before that there were the regular Litepanel 1 x 1, with terrible color rendition in comparison, and 25% the brightness of Astras now. Hardly enough light to even get a proper f/stop; fortunately for them they came out around the DLSR revolution when everyone was obsessed with shooting a f/1.2-f/2, generally speaking. I still sometimes have clients who don't like their interviews in focus, unfortunately.

Now RGB lights are coming out and are going to be the norm before long. As other manufacturers figure out as Litepanels has how to make their bi-color lights not loose so much brightness at the different ends of the spectrum, I suspect Daylight only and Tungsten only LED lights will get phased out, just as Litepanels didn't even bother releasing a Daylight only or Tungsten only Astra Soft light.

Just because tech was once good enough doesn't mean it remains good enough. A DVX100 may have been good enough for us 10 years ago, but it isn't anymore. Back when I shot with tungsten only hot lights, I always shut windows, practically never had a windowed background, etc., and it was really limiting. Yes, I got the job done, but I now have improved my interviews because I have lights powerful enough to fight daylight since they don't require CTB which looses 1 2/3 stops of light to match daylight. I just used an Astra a few days ago as a key light to shoot some interviews in broad daylight, which I could have never done with a tungsten light. I'd need something like a 3K tungsten to get the same brightness after being CTBed, and then a generator to power that since regular power outlets could not, instead of simply using an Anton Bauer battery on my Astra.

I still find my LED kit lacking. I'm eyeing the Litepanels Gemini. RGB, wifi ap, about three times as bright as an Astra 6x, almost half the weight of a Skypanel with less cabling/pieces to deal with, etc. The Astras often just aren't bright enough when fighting daylight, or lighting large areas. So, I have to compromise with what I have. But as new tech comes out, I'll gladly take advantage of it so my limitations get lessened.

I'm also looking forward to RGB Astras. I may skip the 6x and wait for the RGB Astra 6x, which I suspect may be out some time next year, if they get made. But chances are I'll get one or two 6xs before long. I own a lot of cameras so sometimes I double book crews using my equipment, so one or two more Astras will give me two full lighting interview setups so I don't have to rent lights when double booked.



Doug Jensen said:
Personally, I only need daylight and have no need for the fake tungsten color of an LED. And I think mixing LED Tungsten with real Tungsten is a recipe for crap. I'm all daylight all the time. If I ever want to warm up a light just a little bit I can always throw a bit of CTO on it.
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I've always heard putting a CTO (or CTB) on an LED light is a recipe for bad color unless the CTB is specifically made for that LED to avoid it looking like crap, such as Area 48's phosphor panels. Thus, using bi-color to warm up a light should give better results than CTBing it with a standard gel. I'd be pretty surprised if CTBing a daylight LED resulted in better color rendition than using the bi-color feature to get it to orange. I'm not aware of Litepanels for example selling any CTOs made specifically for their Astra lights.

I think it was Guy Holt who explained on one of the various forums the science behind the negative color aspects of gelling LEDs with common gels.
 
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Eric, you're obviously an experienced professional who has already made up their mind about many things and I am not here to convince you otherwise. Carry on.
 
"I'm eyeing the Litepanels Gemini. RGB, wifi ap, about three times as bright as an Astra 6x"

Is it brighter than the Astra 6x?

Here are the photometrics from B&H's website:

Litepanels Gemini 2x1 Bi-Color LED Soft Panel- Daylight 389fc /4317 lux @ 5.0'

Litepanels Astra 6X Bi-Color LED Panel- Daylight: 588 fc / 6330 lux @ 5.0'


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JPNola said:
"I'm eyeing the Litepanels Gemini. RGB, wifi ap, about three times as bright as an Astra 6x"

Is it brighter than the Astra 6x?

Here are the photometrics from B&H's website:

Litepanels Gemini 2x1 Bi-Color LED Soft Panel- Daylight 389fc /4317 lux @ 5.0'

Litepanels Astra 6X Bi-Color LED Panel- Daylight: 588 fc / 6330 lux @ 5.0'


_________________
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The Gemini is a soft light which is listed as having a 93 degree beam angle (I'm not sure if the beam angle statistic is correct; Litepanels used to incorrectly list their Astra Soft as a 46 degree beam angle and later updated it to 93 degrees, while the Skypanel is listed at a 115 degree beam angle). As such, its output is better off compared to the Astra Soft.

The Astra Soft 4x is - Daylight: 97 fc / 1042 lux @ 5.0' / 1.5 m. So, the Gemini is about four times as bright as the Astra Soft. Once the Astra Soft 6x comes out, at around 1500 lux, then the Gemini will be about 2.8 times as bright.

Now in relation to the regular Astra's brightness, let's consider scenarios. With the regular Astra, you almost always want to diffuse it since it has a tight beam angle, multi-bulb so multi-shadows, and is rather harsh. So, with one stop of diffusion, your 6330 lux becomes 3165 lux. Now to fill that one stop of diffusion with a 46 degree beam angle, say a 4 x 4, you have to put the light around three feet from the diffusion, while the diffused Gemini doesn't need to be put three feet back since it's already diffused. Factor in the inverse square law and you could be loosing another stop or half a stop of light due to the distance, bringing you down to 1500-2000 lux, around a third of the Gemini's brightness.

Now, the Gemini is of course a 2 x 1 so would not be nearly as soft hitting head on as an Astra through a 4 x 4. So, let's say you put the Gemini through a 4 x 4 as well, as would be a likely case in an interview setup using it as a key light. With the wider beam angle you're able to put the light a lot closer to the 4 x 4 while still having it fill the whole 4 x 4, so you don't loose as much brightness due to the inverse square law. I'd imagine a soft light going through a 4 x 4 is going to be a bit softer than a hard light going through a 4 x 4, but I'm not sure of that; I also imagine the soft light is not going to do you as much good when going through diffusion, so the Astra shines (no pun intended) as far as output when being diffused, compared to a soft light being diffused a second time in order to achieve the desired size of source. I'd be rather curious to test out the brightness of the two lights when going through a 4 x 4 at proper distance to fill the 4 x 4 to see which comes out brighter.

Now let's consider you need to light up a large room. So, you want a wide beam angle and there's a good chance you'll be fine with using the Gemini not diffused to get the job done. In this scenario the Astra will often fall short. Or, if you're fine using just the 2 x 1 source on an interview with no extra diffusion, you'll have a brighter light, along with various other scenarios where you may use the light undifussed or don't have the room to put the light three feet away from a 4 x 4, or six feet away from an 8 x 8.

One scenario where I will use the Astra undiffused is outdoors in sunlight, where it's nice to have that extra punch of the tighter beam angle, and in relation to the brightness of the sun, the light doesn't feel too harsh on the subject.

You bring up a good point, though. The regular Astra is a hard light and the Gemini, Astra Soft, and Skypanels are soft lights. I have two regular Astras and an Astra Soft, and while the Soft certainly has its uses, more often I prefer the non-Soft as I'm punching through larger difussion, so it seems it would be wise for Litepanels and Arri to come out with a non-soft version of their bigger soft lights, as those lights would have quite a nice punch.
 
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Doug Jensen said:
I own both (daylight only) and the 6X is 50% brighter than the 4X, which is significant. I don't need that much firepower very often, but when I do, it is a great tool to have. If the cost difference isn't very much, I'd definately recommend the 6X. BTW, "6X" means that it is 6 times brighter than an original 1x1. And "4X" means it is 4 times brighter.
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Sorry for the thread revival, but this first statement prompted me... as I'm trying to make sense of Litepanels' specs (literally)... according to Litepanels the 6x isn't 50% brighter than the 4x, but about 14% brighter. 4x = 538fc and 6x = 614fc... so 614-538=76 so 76/538 = 14% brighter. 50% is a half an f-stop. So what real significance is 14%? Less than 1/6th of a stop? Why bother?
 
You are comparing the 4x Daylight vs. the 6x Bi-Color. The 4x Bi-Color is discontinued now so I can't see the specs on the B&H site, but it was a lower output as I recall. Possibly 50% lower than the 6x.

I don't own an Astra (I ordered one 4x daylight yesterday) so I'm not certain about how it works but presumably the bi-color may use half the diodes that the daylight does to produce the same 5600k color light, but those same diodes are putting out more light because that's what they were designed to do. Theoretically you could hack the daylight Astra so it would put out even more light, working as hard as the daylight diodes on the bi-color version. However this would probably shorten the life of those diodes and maybe it would overheat or something else.

I wonder whether the thread about the Astras dying prematurely only refers to the bi-color models? Perhaps it has something to do with the increased output vs. the daylight versions.
 
MattinSTL said:
Sorry for the thread revival, but this first statement prompted me... as I'm trying to make sense of Litepanels' specs (literally)... according to Litepanels the 6x isn't 50% brighter than the 4x, but about 14% brighter. 4x = 538fc and 6x = 614fc... so 614-538=76 so 76/538 = 14% brighter. 50% is a half an f-stop. So what real significance is 14%? Less than 1/6th of a stop? Why bother?
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As a general rule, if budget allows get the most powerful unit available. The 6x is the most powerful 1x1 Litepanel. You can always decrease the output but you can't make a 4x as bright as a 6x.

There WILL be situations where the 6x isn't enough output. There will be even more situations where the 4x isn't enough output.
 
I don't like the Astra panels to much. They do output a good amount of light but I find them harsh even with softbox and compared to Aladdin Bi-Flex panels I favour the Aladdins when it comes to colour and softness.
 
mothmachine said:
You are comparing the 4x Daylight vs. the 6x Bi-Color. The 4x Bi-Color is discontinued now so I can't see the specs on the B&H site, but it was a lower output as I recall. Possibly 50% lower than the 6x.

I don't own an Astra (I ordered one 4x daylight yesterday) so I'm not certain about how it works but presumably the bi-color may use half the diodes that the daylight does to produce the same 5600k color light, but those same diodes are putting out more light because that's what they were designed to do. Theoretically you could hack the daylight Astra so it would put out even more light, working as hard as the daylight diodes on the bi-color version. However this would probably shorten the life of those diodes and maybe it would overheat or something else.

I wonder whether the thread about the Astras dying prematurely only refers to the bi-color models? Perhaps it has something to do with the increased output vs. the daylight versions.
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I'm comparing the 4x Daylight to the 6x Daylight. There's a 14% difference in output... so it seems the 6x is under-powered, or the 4x is (was) a bargain yesterday, but my post is more about curiosity on the specs. Manufacturers are trying to get the max output from diodes... down to binning individual diodes on performance. Litepanels released the 6x Bi-Color first, then the 6x Daylight. I guess it's possible (or perhaps the most likely explanation) that they are using a different bin for the daylight vs. bi-color, but there's a race to be the best no doubt. It's not logical that a company would intentionally handicap potential performance... EXCEPT for the heat argument. But I follow diode tech pretty consistently, and other posters (about 1.5 years ago) who said there's a fairly straight-forward watts to lumens formula... and I argued with this at the time by the way... well... those guys are right. Binning brings up performance, but it doesn't DOUBLE it. I find it hard to believe that diode tech has doubled output in the last year and a half.

I'm guessing the spec sheet is off... or else the 6x is a barely repackaged 4x... or the 6x bi-color (set to full daylight) can't really beat the 4x daylight. Using HALF the diodes to make the same light is a huge, huge deal. If they've really done this... then yeah, I sure hope they've addressed potential reliability issues from pushing diodes so hard. With the current level of LED tech this would be akin to putting a super-charger on a small engine, to make it compete with a tuned V8... and maybe that's what they've done(?), but I digress to the point others had to make repeatedly (and I've since, reluctantly accepted)... that there's really no free lunch with LED... to get a brighter light you need more LEDs and/or more power... and somehow Litepanels (according to the specs) has gotten around this... which is why I question the accuracy of the specs.

By the way, the 6x bi-color vs. 4x bi-color is 38% brighter in daylight and 50% brighter in tungsten. So yes, 50% brighter if it's set in the direction of tungsten, but even 38% in daylight is still an impressive step up... AND is why I'm so perplexed that the 6x daylight-only isn't blowing the doors off everything else (instead of being only 5% brighter than the 6x bi-color... with TWICE the diodes?)

JPNola said:
As a general rule, if budget allows get the most powerful unit available. The 6x is the most powerful 1x1 Litepanel. You can always decrease the output but you can't make a 4x as bright as a 6x.

There WILL be situations where the 6x isn't enough output. There will be even more situations where the 4x isn't enough output.
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This is true... no light can ever be potentially too bright. My interest in the discussion is more about Litepanels' specs... and a previous back and forth conversation in this thread where it was said that the 6x daylight was 50% brighter than the 4x daylight, which is actually not 50%, but 14%. For me this is relevant to a discussion about the evolution of LED technology.

I went to NAB this year to see what was new in audio... and also in LED tech. I wish I'd have talked to the Litepanels guys on where they were getting their "free lunch" of doubling output in individual diodes, but I didn't know at the time that this would be the claim on Astras that would be released months later. They said "brighter" and I remember something mentioned around 25% on a model, but brighter from 1/2 the diodes is a completely different (amazing) thing, if that's actually happened.

If there's a compelling explanation... I'll follow-up... but I guess you could see why I'm scratching my head that there would be a bi-color and a daylight-only released together, when the bi-color is only 5% off the daylight when in full-daylight (for just a couple hundred bucks more, I'll take the 5% hit... PLUS get the complete spectrum of full tungsten to full daylight).
 
I own both the 4x and the 6x (both Daylight versions). There is NO difference between them in terms of brightness, it is all just a marketing con. I measured them as being the same and contacted litepanels. They told me to send the 6x in to them so they could check it, they got back to me saying the 6x was functioning as it should and was as bright as should be. So the fact that it is no brighter than my 4x panels is very annoying. I did lots of measurements and supplied them with photo proof, they just said they would refer me to their USA division, but I've never heard any more from them. I feel very annoyed, the only reason I bought the 6x was because they said it would be 50% brighter than my 4x, which was a complete lie. I would like to take this further as I think it must be a violation of trades descriptions, so will look into this. Doug Jensen, as I said note - I read that you had found the 6x to be brighter - would you still stand by this? Since it is absolutely not my experience, and litepanels have confirmed my 6x is as bright as they would expect.
 
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