Aspect HD is this bad?

Nikolaj

Member
Hi! I recently bought Adobe Premiere and Cineforms Aspect HD, with the intention of editing my HDV material. I also put together a computer with a Intel Core 2 Duo 6600 processor, 2 gig RAM, and three 300 GB 7200rpm SATA-disks. These are NOT raided.

I was under the impression that Aspect HD performes a lossless compression, or nearly lossless. This is what I have noted so far (after experimenting for a day):

1 Cineform really try to help as much as they can with documentation, updates and so on.
2 After importing HDV material using “HDV capture” (that is, not using the Aspect HD intermediate) timeline play is jerky and choppy. When, on the other hand, I import using “Cineform HDV Capture”, the material plays smoothly.

So far, so good. Now to the less pleasant things:

3 When using Aspect HD intermediate, simple effects that I add, like flipping the image (which is essential for me, as my material is recorded upside down because of my using an 35mm adapter during shooting) are not visible during playback, if I don’t render them first. This is an annoyance, as it demands of me to render all my raw footage if I want to study it in Premiere.

4 When using Aspect HD intermediate, after hitting space there is a playback delay of about 0.5 seconds, during which my preview monitor flashes. When I pause playback with another hit on space, the monitor does not show a still from the timeline, as expected, but is empty.

After all, the above are only small annoying things that makes working in Premiere less enjoyable. But the really scary thing (which made me write this to ask for help) is this:

5 Even though importing material using the old “HDV capture” gives jerky playback (because of the 7200rpm SATA limitation?) the image looks nice and the way I expected. As HDV has the 8-bit 7:2:0 color sampling, in certain scenes “color banding” is very visible, but I can’t do much about that. On the other hand, capturing using “Cineform HDV Capture” gives an apparent degradation of the material color-wise, far from the “losslessness” expected by me.
This difference is visible all the way into the exported test movies I made.

I’ll be happy to send stills to exemplify this.

I would like comments and to hear the experiences of others when it comes to Aspect HD. I imagine that some people don’t notice the color degradation if, for example, there is a lot of motion and action in their material, or if there is not smooth gradients in their images. In my case the camera is still, and films typically smooth gradient motives, like walls in an apartment.

Or have I got it wrong about Aspect HD degrading the material?

Please help.
 
I think Aspect HD has an option where it will flip the image for you during capture. I tried the trial version of it and I did noticed that the color came out completely different (way too saturated) if edited in a Cineform timeline. When using a normal HDV timeline the color looks normal. Not sure why.
 
I found the "flip during capture"-function. That is really great.

But still... the colors are too saturated or something. Strange, especially as Cineform makes a big number out of the excellent color reproduction on their website, explaining in detail how it works and everything.
 
What camera are you using?

HDV is a Sony format and you are in the HVX forum so I am a little confused.

I am wondering if you are using some wrong settings or options somewhere in Aspect HD.

BTW - I have no problems with the Cineform Intermediate files created from mxf files using Cineform HD LInk.
 
Shooter said:
HDV is a Sony format and you are in the HVX forum so I am a little confused.

I thought he was on the premiere form, so I'm a little confused. I'm also confused why JVC, and Cannon would be using HDV if its a Sony format.
 
He is on the Premiere Forum within the Panasonic DVX/HVX User.com Forum

Why would he post here if he was using anything but a DVX/HVX - and we now know he is using a Sony camera. (This is not the issue)

My input towards his issue was maybe he is using a wrong Preset, setting or option.
 
I was wondering: could it have an impact on image quality that I choose "HD File Size: Medium (Recommended)" in "CineForm Encoder Options".
Other alternatives are "Small" and "Large" (or something like that).

By the way, the camera I use for playback of HDV tapes is Sony HVR-A1.
 
WesCoughlin said:
I'm also confused why JVC, and Cannon would be using HDV if its a Sony format.

HDV was developed and endorsed jointly by Sony, Canon and JVC.

And Shooter, I'm confused as well about your statement.
 
Sorry to confuse anyone but simply I was asking what camera he was using to establish what settings he needed to use in Cineform HD. There are some settings specific to HDV which we all know is a different format to DVCProHD (whether it is Sony, JVC or Canon is irrelevant and I was only stating it is different)

At the time I asked the question , I was unaware what camera he was using and the fact he had mentioned HDV seemed to conflict with the fact that this Site is generally more to do with Panasonic cameras (hence - DVXuser.com)

The OP had asked the same question regarding his issues on the Adobe Premiere Forum also.

@Nicolaj - Have you tried using HDLink (convert) instead of Capture ?
 
Nicolaj,

You shouldn't cross post, as I have answer your same questions across the whole web.

As you have now learned from support and other forums. Aspect HD has the correct color representation, it is Adobe's native mode that is using the wrong colorspace (it is use 601 instead of 709) creating the color shift. Aspect HD has no color shift, and we are correct is promoting this.

Note: you should use High quality, Medium is only for older systems that maybe lacking in CPU power.
 
I am not having an issue with the color handling of AspectHD. I may have given that impression in my earlier posts.

I realize AspectHD works for most people that use it. I think it's a really good product and I think it deserves praise that the company takes active part in discussions on the web (through David Newman).

However, AspectHD doesn't work for me, although I really want it to. After all, I invested 499 USD in the product. The reason it does not work is this:

I shot my film with a 35mm adapter to get a "film look". Large parts of the image are out of focus often. This creates shallow gradients. As David Newman explained, the MPEG "ringing" of native HDV has the paradoxical benefit of hiding the banding in these areas (banding that is a result of 8 bit color handling), whereas AspectHD shows the banding in all its glory. Have I got it right?

I just want my movie to look good. Actually, I'm not very picky; I can live with specks on the lens, over-exposed areas... You name it. But banding.... banding is the artefact from hell. It's hard not to see, even if you don't care much about picture quality.

Just to eliminate the possibility that these problems were made up by me, I did some blind tests with other people. They all spontaneously reacted about the banding of the AspectHD material. (They also said the native material was sharper looking, although this may be a result of somehing else.)

I guess what I want to say is simply: if you have shallow gradients in your material (like sky at sunset perhaps, or a wall out of focus with light coming in from one side) then think twice about using AspectHD.

With all this said, I still have a nagging suspicion that I'm doing something wrong with my settings. Most other people (except two) have not had trouble with AspectHD. I wonder if this is because the material they edit is not vulnerable to banding, or if they don't notice it, or if I'm simply wrong.

David, I sent a couple of more comparision images to CineForm tech support to emphasize how banding affects my movie with AspectHD.

Finally I have a question: will adding a small amount of grain remove some of the "obviousness" of the banding?
 
Try using a high quality settings (from other posts you were using medium) this will impact perceived sharpness. As I have pointed out in other places you have posted, Aspect HD doesn't add any banding, you are seeing banding that is inherent in 8-bit -- yes adding 0.5 to 1 bit of noise/grain can surpress banding when needed. 8-bit banding is the reason to use 10-bit when you can. You should try Prospect HD to learn more why this is the best workflow -- particularly is you want the movie to look is obsolute best (all our film level project customers use Prospect HD or Prospect 2K.) If you choose you get the full Aspect HD purchase price off the Prospect HD purchase.
 
Alas, I'll have to wait till my next computer to upgrade to Prospect... in about two years, that is! :)

For now, I'll give it a shot with native. If I run into trouble, I'll try again with capturing with AspectHD and adding some grain in the scenes where it is needed the most.

Thanks for being responsive and supportive.

Regards,
Nikolaj
 
Note: Prospect HD and Aspect HD do run on the same classes of PC, only Prospect HD Ingest requires extra horsepower -- no upgrade to your PC would be needed if you stay with Prospect HD Edit.
 
this may not be your issue, but I wanted to mention it: if you don't have premiere render the video that needs rendering (designated with red bar), premiere will play the video at low resolution. Could that be what's causing your banding? I bring it up cuz i saw in your original post that you were unhappy about having to render flipped video...
 
hey guys,
this is a bit off topic from that guy's question, but it involves AspectHD. Is this software program a compliment or replacement to Blackmagic's Intensity HDMI capture card?

I'm new to HDV and trying to figure this all out...AspectHD decompresses HDV so that when you splice and edit it, the resolution doesn't degrade. is that correct? How does capturing directly from HDMI instead of firewire improve things? thanks in advance.

mc
 
I don't now ...

I don't now ...

Nikolaj

try to work with Edius for a couple of hours. It has the HQ codec.

I use both Premiere and Edius. In Premiere with Matrox RTX2.
 
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