Artistry vs technical skill: weighing the importance of both

Holy smokes. How does this work? You are a genius. No seriously. You haven't read the script, You don't know the action. You don't know the lighting requirements. Just how much do you know before you arrive? I am amazed that you can just show up and wing it.

I suppose it's like when I did broadcast. I just needed a quick rundown and I was ready. But that was after I did many shows. It became routine.
I typically read the script before shooting, just not necessarily before an interview prior to being hired. But there have been some movies where I didn't read the script. For 48 Hour Films, I often am the sole producer and the DP, and have someone else directing, who is sort of working both above me and below me. But in any case, I'm not getting fired since I'm funding and running everything. He'll sometimes hand me shot lists which I'll often ignore, I may or may not have read the script. How long does it take to figure out a scene? Here is how it goes...

Me: "Tony, what scene are we filming next?"

Director: "Outdoor night conversation at the bottom of a hill of two people as the robot and her lover confront each other before she kills him."

Me: "Okay, cool. I'll have the gaffer setup the 1200D on the top of the hill to simulate moonlight, we'll have one or two battery powered panel lights on the reverse side for fill, I'll do all Steadicam using 24mm or 16mm Ultra primes for the master shots, 32mm for the over the shoulder, and 85mm for the tight shots."

Director: "Sounds good."

I may or may not say all this, but I'll think it and do it. The director and gaffer may of course input their own ideas as well, just depends. But either way, I don't feel it slows down production to an extent worth worrying about.

To a large extent, is it really rocket science? Did we really need to meet a week earlier to shot list the scene, talk it over, think about it, think some more about it, and then likely come up with very similar results to just making it up on the spot the day of?

A DP doesn't necessarily need to know every detail of the script in order to film a scene well; they can get a quick summary of what they're about to film may just be all they need to know.

I'm not really advocating DPs to not read scripts prior to filming, but I am saying I've filmed movies without reading scripts and you can do it without it turning out bad or majorly delaying production, as long as someone can take 10-20 seconds to quickly summarize the scenes you're about to film. And even if you had read the script, you often still need that summary to know which part of the script you're about to film. So, perhaps I'm just saying, the importance of DPs having read the script (particularly prior to a phone interview) is in my opinion considered more important than it needs to be.

Regarding shotlisting, Roger Deakins often chooses his shots on the day of the shoot as he likes to have the actors and set in place to get the best idea of how things will go. Feel free to read through his thoughts on Shotlists here: https://www.rogerdeakins.com/forums/topic/shot-design-in-prep/

Of course for more VFX heavy scenes like Bladerunner, shot lists become more important. For a low budget filmmaker such as myself who doesn't do VFX heavy films, it's not as important.

To me the real kicker is when I've done shot lists as I sometimes do, and the cinematography turns out no better than other films which I chose shots on the spot. I won the Best Cinematography Award at the 48 Hour Film Project at the worldwide level competing against 4000 teams (granted, this is small time compared to Academy Awards, Primetime Emmy's, etc.), and for that film it was mostly filmed going, "Let's try this angle, now this angle, let's move the light here, now there." What is the guiding force of my cinematography? A combination of technical knowledge and an artistic mind that basically thinks, "Let me try stuff until I'm happy with how the shot looks." The rule of cool.

Then the movie shows and people say stuff like, "The cinematography seemed so meaningful with the themes. What inspired you to use the purple and blue lighting in that scene?" Me, "I turned dials on the RGB light until I found some random colors I thought looked cool. *shrug*" I personally don't mind admitting I'm mostly just trying to find things I think look good with not much deeper thought into it than that, but for some filmmakers, that may sound like heresy. The problem is, many of those DPs would have done a worse job even if they had tried assigning thematic meaning to every shot. More talented DPs may heavily use the script and themes to guide their choices and I'm not going to put that down. I guess the only thing I'm saying here is that you can still come up with quality work without basing a lot of your cinematography choices off of the script, and while everyone has their own process, one way isn't necessarily always better than another way.


Charles, I'm sure our financial maths are very different as far as narrative work goes, but let me break down some rough numbers here. Say I get 50 narrative offers per year, say it takes an average of one hour to read a script (a mix of feature and short scripts, plus I tend to be a slow reader), so, 50 hours per year if I read every script for every project that someone reaches out to me for. Now since I'm only doing about one paid narrative shoot per year, and as far as my narratives have gone, they overall I'm guessing average three days of shooting per project and $1000 per day, so, $3,000 per project (and year). Let's assume 10 hour days here, so 30 hours, $100 per hour. But, if I'm reading EVERY script sent to me, now we have to add 50 hours of time just to get that $3,000, so now the hourly rate drops to $37.5 per hour. Now factor in that at least half of a typical DP owner/op's income goes towards equipment expenses, insurance, travel, etc., that drops the hourly rate of profit to $18.75 per hour, which is not far off from minimum wage in Los Angeles. Now you see the math doesn't make much sense.

Cut out the excessive script reading, be picky about who I reply to, and for the most part read the script AFTER the phone call and AFTER I've been hired for the shoot, and now we're back at a more reasonable wage, as at that point I'm only reading one script per year. And granted, as my rates have gone up over the years (and inflation) the more recent narratives I did were at higher rates, but I'm talking averages over the past 15 years, and I wasn't always getting as many narrative inquiries per year, which may further skew these biased rough numbers I'm throwing out.

But it is a real problem if we can't even discuss rates to see if we're in the same ballpark before I've read the script and given for free all of my ideas when 95% of the narrative clients reaching out to me couldn't afford my rates in the first place. That's why I mostly ignore narrative clients these days, saves a lot of time. A lot of them want you to read the script prior to discussing rates, thinking their script is so awesome it will make you willing to do the movie for cheap.


What annoys me is the concept that a DP has to read a script and start offering unique ideas to get hired for a job. Say I've got a movie and I want to hire either Charles Papert or David Mullen. What is my primary criteria for choosing between them? I would say their list of credits, reels, and the quality of cinematography in the work I see. Sure, a phone interview may help me determine who I personally get along with better, who sounds more pleasant to talk to and potentially work with, but in that initial phone interview, is hearing their unique ideas for how they'll shoot my particular script the real selling point to me hiring them? I'm not necessarily thinking so. If both hadn't read the script prior to the call, I already know either way that I've got two talented choices with a long list of credits to back up their talent and am not that worried that if they later read the script, they'll show up to set and say, "I read the script and I have no idea how to film this so I'm pretty sure everything will turn out terrible, but it's too late to hire someone else at this point so let's make some garbage images." Realistically, I'll basically expect similar quality as their previous work assuming the production is able to give them similar level of resources, so them having some random brain fart after later reading the script is not really a concern for me.

There's a similar problem regarding unpaid script reading where actors are often required to spend large amounts of time doing unpaid auditions in order to get parts. Let's just say while I actually act quite a bit, it's mostly for my own productions, and I'm just glad I've never had to do an unpaid audition for myself.

I had a client recently say they wanted to schedule a Zoom video call with me to interview me to get to know me to see about hiring me for a corporate shoot. I told them my info is on my website and if they'd like to do a quick phone call to discuss details of the shoot, there would be no charge for that, but if they wanted to do a video call to get to know me, there would be a charge for that. I've had that happen multiple times. Most of my clients hire me based on the quality of my work and my gear list, not based on how an interview goes. Clients who want free interviews I don't tend to take as seriously; sometimes I'll do it, other times I'll tell them there will be a charge for it which they practically never go for. My time is not free, and I'm not going to waste a bunch of time offering excessive free interviews. I'm too busy with work as it is and need a vacation.
 
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That's an interesting point, Sam. Some people do get ushered/mentored into the world of production. Years ago there were a few Steadicam operators who had previously been star atheletes (running backs maybe?) who had been encouraged into the fold by established operators. I had nothing of the sort, growing up in a relatively minor market for the industry and without any connections. I had no natural aptitude for Steadicam, nor was I exceptionally fit and especially not tall (when I started the assumption was that Steadicam operators needed to be towering, thanks to inventor Garrett Brown clocking in at 6'6"!) The only thing I had going for me was an absolute obsession with that particular craft, and was relentless in my pursuit. I think where it gets trickier in this time where so much is accessible to the average person--the barrier for entry has been lowered so much in terms of financial and knowledge base availability--it's less likely for people to specialize, which means their time and energy and focus is spread out thin. Who has time to devote to multiple pursuits at once? The phrase "jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind.
For sure.

But some of my crazy projects.. rickshaw car rigging.. have be lead by my desire to film from those angles.. not really as a business venture.

My 'snorricam' was actually built at the request of artist JME and has made good rental cash for a decade. I never desired a snorricam.

I was purely hired as some one who can chop metal by wednesday.

---

I was recently on the set of 'a really big movie' and came into contact with quite a lot of craft folk who know nothing of film making.

Yes tayloring in WW1 uniforms, or c15 armour or victorian dresses or 1950 ferraris.. but thes folk were just artisans at work and experts in thier field.

The ferrari bloke was a kit car race mechanic.

These back lot folk would not be stepping on set at all but were working highly paid on 'a really big movie'
 
If people want to do this kind of thing - I don't do it, same as Eric. In fact, I actually stopped work on one project because of it. A repeat commission from a client. My work is boring in the main, and he had a new factory and wanted the 'story' of it turning from empty building to up and running, with each huge item of equipment arriving and being commissioned. It was a three month project. The factory manager would call and say X was arriving tomorrow, and if I was free, I'd turn up spend a few hours documenting it with time lapse multiple cameras, cameras on the things coming off the lorries and moving cameras and people. Every time I had enough to invoice, I did, and they paid. Then - they handed their marketing an advertising to an agency - and they called me and invited me to submit examples of my work to continue the project, as this was their system. The old manager calling his friends system was gone, and the company had signed off on it. I refused. They then asked for all the material shot to date (which contractually remained mine) I refused. I still have the drive, but lost them for ever. The last time I got interviewed for anything was in 1994. Since 1996, I've been self-employed and everything is word of mouth. This year, crews have been difficult to book and my tech manager has been using his list as well as mine and we got through. As for technical vs artistry, I'm noticing labelling more in credits - cast, creatives, crew - that kind of thing. I note my kind of roles rarely make the creative list. The directors, producers, lighting and even music folk get on it, but my role, as a production manager doesn't. Such is life. In truth, I'm a problem solver not a problem generator!
 
In the pub I 'hang' with two other shooters.

We know tech and to talk about it rarely happens.

Mainly we talk about the balance of price/inconvenience vs doing the job 'good enough'

So the corporate shoot can mainly happen in the midday sun with a light and a scrim. But if the same client wants a nice shot of thier new apartments for rent there may be a conversation.

Usually I can shoot you jobs any time with my light and scrim.. but I cannot light and scrim your building .. so we MUST shoot it at 6am.

I hate being asked for 'cinematic'.

Im a kid with a 600 and a scrim in a van. If the client wants cinematic Im entirely capable of directing a light package from Panalux London.

Its not big or clever.. (maybe less so to have a gaffer and his team) its just communicating with the client and dicovering if they need a kid with a 600 or a few trucks from Panalux.

I can do either no problem. Sure Im a bit sketchy on best use of a huge package.
 
My world does resolve around

prive/inconvenience/quality of result

And understanding what the client needs/whants/can afford.

I note art is missing! Mainly at school I learned to do different styles and see that as part of the job.
 
Mainly at school I learned to do different styles and see that as part of the job.
There's another facet to explore. Versatility. I think it reasonably safe to say that in a small market, it's a solid skill to have. Certainly some people find their specific niches and stick to them (Doug certainly has, from all he describes, and has done quite well). I like shooting different genres and styles within the scripted world (honestly I don't have much interest in shooting non-scripted any more, even though I have done a good amount of it especially earlier in my career). I had an interesting experience with some young DP's I met with to shoot one of my short films last year. It was a series of connecting one'rs, in a large location with limited rigging time, which created a certain lighting challenge. Once I met with them at the location and described the extent of the traveling shots, several of them lost interest. After pressing one of them on the why, I was told that they didn't like the idea of not being able to craft each piece of the shot to look their best. And that the resulting look would be "off brand" for them. I was honestly a bit shocked. I said, what if you get hired for a job that incorporated this kind of look, wouldn't it be worth it to tackle it on a low-stakes project for the experience, so they could learn what works and what doesn't? Nope.

I keep hearing this from newer shooters--protecting their "brand". Making sure their Instagram is perfectly manicured and curated, and all the images have a common look. It's completely the opposite of my path when I was in their shoes. Who knows.
 
Yes. “The beer guy” or the “teen fashions lady” will often command big bucks vs the most versatile shooter in wyoming. A lot to discuss there!
 
Eric, in this hyper competitive climate, the idea of charging a prospective client for an interview is...well...wow. I mean more power to you that you can pull it off, but you are in some rarified air there. I do less prep than most DP's I know to get gigs, because in essence I agree with your sentiments. I know plenty that go as far to prepare elaborate look books for their interviews. I've done that maybe three times in my career. One of those times was for a TV series that put me through four separate interviews, I felt like by the last one I really need to put some shoulder behind it and had a sense that my competitor was going to mount a dog-and-pony show so I had to somewhat do the same. I had one interview for a series with a writer and creator that I'd worked with before on a notable show, so they knew me well. My agent had sent me info on the meeting which I thought was just a meet-and-greet, since we had so much familiarity--I understood the job was already mine. He had attached the script to the email but I had missed the attachment as it came under their company logos at the bottom and gotten lost. In the interview they asked me about the script and I was like, yeah uh haven't gotten it yet, then realized that I had and just missed it. The mood in the room took a turn, I tried to deflect it but I ended up not getting the job.

One of the things that really bothers me in an interview is when they ask "what do you see as the look of the show"? Not that I don't have an answer, but I feel like there are two possible negative outcomes from this. One is that my answer might be the opposite of what they are thinking, which is a strike against me, even though I'd be perfectly fine executing their version, so it becomes more of a guessing game. This happened years back on a comedy series about an improv troupe, I said something like "a way to go is complementing the loose improv feel with a handheld, fly-on-the-wall look" which was super popular at the time, i.e. The Office and Parks and Rec. The producer said well, we were thinking more of a cinematic elegant approach. All I could do was kind of laugh and say listen, I'd rather shoot like that, I was just trying to mindread. I didn't get that job.

The other negative result from them asking what I see as the look of the show is that they are just mining interviewees for ideas, chances are they've already made up their mind on who they want so they figure they'd get some free consultations out of the rest that maybe they could use. I came up with what I believe was a really smart, interesting and kind of retro approach to shooting a particular feature and pitched the director on it. He loved it and said everyone else he'd talked to was suggesting the complete opposite. Ultimately I didn't end up getting that job. I haven't seen it but I can well imagine someone else taking credit for that approach, if they used it.

As far as the really low budget gigs--I get not putting time into reading a ton of scripts if you are really getting that many offers. For me, on an ultra low budget job, I'd WANT to read the script at least partially to see if I even want to do it. It sounds like you only do this things for the paycheck, which I suppose is a workmanlike approach, but given the amount of energy it takes to work on a small project especially with an inexperienced director, producer etc. for me it's more about, what will the experience be like? Am I giving away my knowledge and guidance on something worthwhile? If the script doesn't draw me in, not only will I be less enthused about participating in the telling of that story, it also leads me to make a judgement on the people I'd be working with--if I think it's lame and they think it's great, obviously we have different tastes and the film will be basically a waste of my time. I can usually tell within the first 10 pages of a feature...sometimes by the second page if it's really bad. I only finish scripts I want to shoot.
 
"what do you see as the look of the show"?

There is an art craft wall.

If they want Bourne you could give it or if they want slowmo classical you could give it.

Hell if they wanted 1980s dance show on tube cameras.. you could give it.

I respect that.. but some may think that it shows you lack vision.
 
There is an art craft wall.

If they want Bourne you could give it or if they want slowmo classical you could give it.

Hell if they wanted 1980s dance show on tube cameras.. you could give it.

I respect that.. but some may think that it shows you lack vision.
Entirely possible. If I had been hired on "WInning Time", would I have pitched using a Saticon tube camera as one of the cameras? Maybe. But I probably would have just used it where that camera was expected to be seen, at the games. Using it as one of the standard cameras on coverage in scenes that nothing to do with the broadcast element, as an atmospheric vibe, was thinking in a way that I probably wouldn't have.

I've never had pretensions of being a visual innovator. I'm serviceable. But I have colleagues who are even further along that track than I. So I'm somewhere in the middle of the pack--maybe lower middle, ha.
 
The thing iss I dont think that is true.

If I said. "CP we are doing a film set in ww2, go away, read the script (on our time) come back with the look you want that fits the script.."

Well all your choices would be respected as much as any big name DP.

I mean the people bow to the big name DPs because they picked anamorphic or K35 and maybe waste a few giga joules on tungsten. Wow.
 
If you're going to be a story-teller tell something positive and personal. As a teenager, I used to think that action and horror movies were in the minority, but I was wrong as I got older; it's in the majority. Positive and heartwarming stories are rare and are getting rarer now, but don't think such stories are easy. Nah, it takes more skill to make a positive and heartwarming story than it does to make an action film of cops vs. robbers. The difficulty in action films is more in special effects and stunts, than it is in story.
 
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The thing iss I dont think that is true.

If I said. "CP we are doing a film set in ww2, go away, read the script (on our time) come back with the look you want that fits the script.."

Well all your choices would be respected as much as any big name DP.

I mean the people bow to the big name DPs because they picked anamorphic or K35 and maybe waste a few giga joules on tungsten. Wow.
You missed an important part of it: the look I want the fits the script AND fits the budget. I very rarely push for anything that isn't an easy sell to producers. I just don't find it worth fighting for, especially when I have to give up other elements (crew, gear) to get what I might want.

I had the opportunity to try out the Laowa anamorphics on a project a year or two ago, the piece would have definitely benefitted from the anamorphic look and it was a perfect opportunity to give them a try. But we could only get three focal lengths, vs the 11 I have in my Sigma collection. Knowing the limitations of the location and where we could physically get the cameras, it felt like we'd be up against it and there would be too many compromises. Bailed on the anamorphics.

I get told "no" all the time. Even though I pre-emptively choose the cheaper and more production-friendly route just to save the energy. Just the way it is.
 
But there have been some movies where I didn't read the script.
I just need to hone in on this. I’m not sure you realize how bizarre a statement like this is.

I can’t believe anyone that calls themselves a DP would be so disrespectful as to not read a script for a project they have committed to working on. Paid or unpaid. It’s a basically courtesy you should extend any production. If you just expect to show up and wing it then I am certain you won’t have a career beyond the small jobs I’m assuming you’re doing now, or films where you are the actual director. Maybe you read those scripts?

It boggles my mind. The best technical analogy I can think of (because that’s what you seem to think cinematography is) is that it’s like a surgeon saying they don’t need to look at the x-ray or discuss the procedure with the patient before they proceed for a surgery. Sure maybe you can wing it. But it sure says you also don’t give a **** about storytelling or care enough to understand the end destination that’s being attempted.

I get that the whole point of this discussion is about technical vs creative.

I’ve always thought of cinematography as the mastery of highly technical multi disciplinary process for a creative emotionally engaging outcome.

The audience don’t care what you did to get a shot, but you have to make them care (or hate) about what you’re selling, or whatever story you’re conveying.

I just can’t comprehend how any professional being paid would think it’s not worth their time to read a script. Good luck to you that you can pull that off and make a career, but I will say, if you’re unhappy or unsatisfied about creative process, then you need to rethink how you’re approaching it because I don’t know of anyone that can get away with that attitude and be successful at it.

When I’m involved in a project, the script is important. It’s not the only thing that matters but it sure will tell you a lot about if the project is worth you investing your time in it. And i mean time, not money for being paid for your time. Your creative time. A script communicates so much information that’s beyond the literal story you’re telling.

You are clearly doing some kind of business and people are hiring you, but I just can’t fathom how you actually get away with it. I am also certain clients and other production partners or collaborators notice you haven’t read the script and even if they don’t bring it up, would be judging you for being so unorthodox.
 
Director: "Outdoor night conversation at the bottom of a hill of two people as the robot and her lover confront each other before she kills him."

Me: "Okay, cool. I'll have the gaffer setup the 1200D on the top of the hill to simulate moonlight, we'll have one or two battery powered panel lights on the reverse side for fill, I'll do all Steadicam using 24mm or 16mm Ultra primes for the master shots, 32mm for the over the shoulder, and 85mm for the tight shots."

Director: "Sounds good."
There'll probably always be a lower ceiling for the looks you can create on the day vs. thinking about shots ahead of time. Sleeping on a lighting plan is hugely beneficial. Even if the production values for that shot come very close to the winging it version, you might think of a way to do things faster, which is only increasing the chances of everything else looking better.

Can you honestly say from your cinematography reel that you couldn't have made things look better if you had more time?

With your RGB til it looks cool example, didn't you start a thread with feedback (from me) saying it felt like RGB for the sake of it rather than being motivated?

Even if you get by winging it, that only shows what you can pull of when winging it, different to a project that shows what you're capable of.
 
You missed an important part of it: the look I want the fits the script AND fits the budget.

You are sensible and practical. Given no budget restrictions I feel you would be well capable of making the 'inspiring' choices made by big name DPs!

I see (working in grip and light) a lot of DPs slowing production while they fiddle with 'thier art' - to me often compromisting the production but getting nice bits for thier insta!!
 
But there have been some movies where I didn't read the script.

I find sripts hard to visualise or understand the emotional track* I think this poor understanding of the paper word might go hand in hand with having a visual talent.

So I might not be able to read a script - I tend to fall asleep! But would be very happy to spend time being talked through it by the writer or director. Or going through story boards etc.
 
Charles, most of the offers I get for movies are ultra low budget, and in the ultra low budget world, it's heavily made up of inexperienced filmmakers who write bad scripts. So, I generally want to waste as little time as possible dealing with that, while still spending a bit of time in the rare cases I find a good fit where the client has enough budget and either experience or likeability for me to wish to work with them. Since I have other better paying forms of income and the ability to produce my own movies whenever I want, it doesn't leave me with much incentive to DP other ultra low budget movies that in most cases are not going to turn out good no matter how good or bad my cinematography turns out.

Keep in mind at this point of my career I'm in the process of quitting freelance DPing in favor of producing and directing as I've grown bored of freelance DPing. I did shoot for two or three days on a paid short film this year, the people were not super experienced but they were nice, I had an okay time, but it was still a bit boring to me. I'm just at a point where I'm tired of making images for other people's productions and want to focus solely on my own productions. To me it's like the difference between being a career nanny taking care of other people's kids, and having your own kids. I'd much rather have my own kids.

Freelance DPing is around 35% of my income now, and I hope to get that down to 0%. So, since it's just supplemental income for me at this point, I can be more picky with the projects I choose, as well as not waste much time on projects I'm not that interested in. I can understand more for a long feature film why clients would want to do a video interview, but for short 1-2 day corporate jobs, I feel it's unnecessary, an annoyance, and in my experience those asking for "get to know you interviews" tend to be less experienced clients with lower budgets who do not value your time nor understand that a DP's personality over a video call is not that important in regards to doing a corporate shoot. I know I sure don't ask for a video call when I'm hiring an audio tech or gaffer for a 1-2 day corporate shoot. And while I haven't said it to a client, sometimes when a client says they want to spend time getting to know me over a phone call for what will be a 1-2 day shoot, I'm tempted to say I don't offer those kind of services and then refer them to a phone operator line that helps with lonely people.

I had a phone interview go south for a doc style shoot recently. They said they were filming at IMG Academy in Florida. I say I've filmed three projects there before. They ask what the projects were and who they were for, I hesitate, trying to recall what the projects were; it's been around 10 years since I did those projects, which I tell them, as I recall one, the second one I vaguely recall, and the third one I don't remember who it was for. There's a tone shift on the call, they seem to think, "This guy says he filmed there but can't even remember what he filmed." What I found ironic about this situation was, if I was less experienced, had very few projects under my belt, then I would remember in detail every project I'd done, and would have avoided this awkward part of the phone interview. But, after having done around 1000 projects in my career, and thus having enough experience that the details of projects from 10 years ago get hazy, I then sound less competent in that particular situation of having difficulty remembering details from long ago. I didn't get the job, while also feeling that my lack of memory was taken wrongly, as it should have been taken as, "This guy has done so many projects for so long that he's having difficulty remembering particular details from some," rather than, "Is this guy making stuff up or just has a bad memory in general, etc."

I also tend to be blunt and refuse to be an ass kisser who strokes a director's ego with words I don't believe in, so when the client sends me the script they wrote and later ask what I thought of it, not being a liar while typically thinking it's a poor script, it puts me in a tough position, as I may want the job if I actually took the time to read the script, but I also don't want to lie and say I liked it, nor do I necessarily wish to tell them I think it's a poor script but that I still wish to do the movie. Perhaps I'll try to give a vague answer, or avoid the question. Does it really matter what the DP thinks of the script? Not if they're planning to do the best they can regardless. Some directors understand this, while others don't.
 
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