Are the Arri 3-light kits a good value as a starter kit? If not, what to start with?

M

MikeFunktastic

Active member
So here's my situation:

I've been hunting for light kits recently and I keep coming back to these Arri 3-light kits. They seem like a great value since they include stands and wheeled cases, however I'm not sure they are exactly what I will need. I've looked at 650 x 3 fresnel kits, the 150/300/650 kit, and others as well (vintage Colortran, Moles etc) but really can't predict what sort of wattage / kit I will need. As of right now, I have absolutely NOTHING in terms of lighting. Knowing that everyone here loves to give the "it depends" answer when us noobs ask about gear, please consider my retort :Drogar-Happy(DBG)::

What I plan to shoot over the next 12-24 months:

-Two short films I wrote. One takes place mostly in a patient room, the other takes place mostly in a high-rise / elevator. Both will have a good amount of dark, indoor locations -- rooms, hallways, elevators, and other confined spaces.
-One corporate vid for a small architecture firm run by a friend and his father. Most of the shoot will probably take place in their home office.
-Promo video for a soccer friend of mine. Most of the shoot will take place outdoors, however parts of it will take place at night, under a well-lit soccer field.
-Documentary-style video for my tennis students / tennis company, and possibly some additional promo work for other tennis clubs I'm affiliated with. Will mostly take place on outdoor tennis courts, during late afternoon / sunset. Possibly some indoor shooting as we're approaching winter.

Some general notes / restrictions (some financial, some situational):
-I am very new to video, and would like to develop a reel. I am doing my first gig or two for very little pay (for the two friends I mentioned), but it will get my name out in front of a lot of other businesses they know.
-I foresee shooting corporate videos for financial support. However, I also plan to do narratives whenever I can spare the time and funds.
-I have about a $2,000 budget for lights at the moment.
-I will not buy new. I see no reason to when there are so many great used deals.
-I also have a "physical space" budget. I share an apartment with others, and can't have tons of stuff lying around the place getting in other people's way. Everything will be stored in my room. Along with all the tripods, sound gear, shoulder rigs, lenses, and pelican cases that are already vying for space.

So I know that corporate videos and narratives don't necessarily mix in terms of lighting requirements - but what can I start with that can be applied to both scenarios?

I hope I can get some great answers from all you senseis.

Cheers!
Mike
 
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I shot my first two shorts with the 3 X 650 plus a 1K (rented). You can do pretty much anything you need to in a small to medium interior with that kit.

Since then I have bought used mole 2 X 200, 1 X 650, 1 X 750, 1 X 1K. Which is similar but a little more flexible. Probably less than $1000 in the used Moles.
 
gonzo_entertainment said:
I shot my first two shorts with the 3 X 650 plus a 1K (rented). You can do pretty much anything you need to in a small to medium interior with that kit.

Since then I have bought used mole 2 X 200, 1 X 650, 1 X 750, 1 X 1K. Which is similar but a little more flexible. Probably less than $1000 in the used Moles.
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Awesome. I figured I could use scrims / dimmers / gels to cut down on wattage if the 650s are overpowered for an interior shot. But If you had to go back to when you first started, would you still have started with a 3x 650 kit? Or would you start right away with the Moles?

With the Moles, I'm more concerned about storage / portability since they won't come in standard kit cases. There are so many cases to choose from, I wouldn't know where to start. Any recommendations?
 
I don't have a case for mine, carry them in milk crates currently. I would like to get a case, but pricey.

It was an economics thing. a 3 X Arri kit rents for $75/day (in my area). When I was first starting it made more sense to rent. Though the probably 9 days total I spent on rental of the Arris on my first two films would have almost bought the Moles.
 
ulisses said:
I would go with 3x 650W

Also, 2x fluorescent lights can be very useful for softlight (4 and 2 bank)
http://www.coollights.biz/cl455p-cool-lights-portable-watt-softlight-p-67.html
http://www.coollights.biz/cl255p-cool-lights-portable-watt-softlight-p-66.html

Also, get a reflector for outdoors
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/358608-REG/Impact_R1142_5_in_1_Reflector_Disc.html
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Thanks. Is the CL 650W kit worth buying over some used Arris / Moles?

As for the fluorescents, I'm most likely going to pass on those since I plan to use scrims / diffusers for softlighting.
 
Most of the time I travel very light, so I use one large Pelican case packed with Lowel lights. ( 4 Pro Lights, 2 DP Lights, 2 Tota Lights ) I use umbrellas ( two 22 inch shoot-through white, four 45 inch white with removeable black backing ) to diffuse the light mainly because they are low weight and very fast to work with.

I also own dimmable daylight fluorescent light banks ( two 4 tube and one 6 tube Diva clones ) that I use on larger shoots where I have a crew to carry the lights. ( very nice light, but very bulky to travel with )

My next acquisition will probably be a set of Flolight 1x1 LED lights to use on location. ( they are cheap, very bright, dimmable, super compact, and daylight balanced )

While I love the quality of light from fresnel lights like the ARRIs, they are kind of bulky to travel with, and require diffuser scrims/silks to soften them up. ( unless I'm trying to mimic direct sunlight, or light up a large background, I find fresnel lights to be too hard to use without proper diffusion )
 
Arri kit quality is very nice, I don't have the CL650W, but cool light has a good value for the money.
Fresnel with scrims / diffusers is very different from fluorescent, like KINOFLO, in light distribution.
 
ulisses said:
Fresnel with scrims / diffusers is very different from fluorescent, like KINOFLO, in light distribution.
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Yes, fresnel lights produce collimated light, so even when they are diffused with a scrim, the light is still directional and has good "throw".

Fluorescent light is un-collimated light, that scatters in all directions from the light tube, which is very soft, but has no "throw", so the light quality changes very quickly as you move away from the light source.
 
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I posted this elsewhere in another thread...

If I were putting together a first lighting kit on a budget I might do something like this...

4 25' Stingers-High quality extension cords
2 Power Strips-High Quality 1.5 amp
1 Harbor Freight Router Controller
1 used 650w Fresnel w/barn doors/scrim set
1 used 200w Fresnel w/barn doors/scrim set
1 4x55w Biax Fluorescent w/daylight & studio tube sets w/case for extra set, w/grid, 1/8 minus green gel
1 1000LED Bi-Color light w/ 1/4 minus green & opal frost gels
3 Used Matthews Beefy Baby stands or similar
1 Medium duty light stand
1 used C-Stand w/arm & grip head
1 5in1 collapsable reflector
1 24x36 flag
4 small pony clamps
12 C-47-closepin
3 Milk Crates

This would give you a solid starting point and 3 different lighting instrument types to build upon in any direction you see fit.
 
TheDingo said:
Yes, fresnel lights produce collimated light, so even when they are diffused with a scrim, the light is still directional and has good "throw".

Fluorescent light is un-collimated light, that scatters in all directions from the light tube, which is very soft, but has no "throw", so the light quality changes very quickly as you move away from the light source.
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They still both abide by the inverse square law. When you double the distance, the light decreases by a factor of 4. Fresnels just have a lot more output to begin with.

I think the issue with fluorescents is that you're more or less stuck with a light that's as soft as it is without any modifiers, except maybe some opal or hampshire frost. Try to shoot it through a 4x frame of 216 or bounce it to make it even softer and you'll have very little light left. Try to make it harder by making the actual source smaller and you'll also have very little light left.
 
Moseph said:
Fresnels just have a lot more output to begin with.
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Actually I think there's more to it than this...

Fluorescent banks are very soft and you can sculpt the light around a subject when they are close in, where they are great for portrait lighting or product lighting.

You can do the same thing with a fresnel light through diffusion, where the light is soft but still partially collimated, so it will still show something of a directional beam. If you look through the diffusion at the fresnel light source you will still see a hot spot, unless you add enough diffusion to eliminate the "spot" effect. The combination of the hot spot surrounded by a broad even tone is a nice effect as you still get some of the specularity of the fresnel light ( which provides micro-contrast or "crispness" ) along with the soft even illumination of the surrounding diffusion material.
 
TheDingo said:
Most of the time I travel very light, so I use one large Pelican case packed with Lowel lights. ( 4 Pro Lights, 2 DP Lights, 2 Tota Lights ) I use umbrellas ( two 22 inch shoot-through white, four 45 inch white with removeable black backing ) to diffuse the light mainly because they are low weight and very fast to work with.

I also own dimmable daylight fluorescent light banks ( two 4 tube and one 6 tube Diva clones ) that I use on larger shoots where I have a crew to carry the lights. ( very nice light, but very bulky to travel with )

My next acquisition will probably be a set of Flolight 1x1 LED lights to use on location. ( they are cheap, very bright, dimmable, super compact, and daylight balanced )

While I love the quality of light from fresnel lights like the ARRIs, they are kind of bulky to travel with, and require diffuser scrims/silks to soften them up. ( unless I'm trying to mimic direct sunlight, or light up a large background, I find fresnel lights to be too hard to use without proper diffusion )
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I get what you mean. To me for now though, I don't mind hauling stuff around. Although I lack space at home, ironically I have a sizable hatchback with tons of volume in the back for hauling equipment around, since I can just drop the back seats. What you mention does concern me though - are fresnels in general so hard with its lighting that even softening them with scrims doesn't achieve a satisfactory effect? Obviously in an ideal world, I'd love to have all the equipment I can but storage space is really an issue for me.

David W. Jones said:
I posted this elsewhere in another thread...

If I were putting together a first lighting kit on a budget I might do something like this...

4 25' Stingers-High quality extension cords
2 Power Strips-High Quality 1.5 amp
1 Harbor Freight Router Controller
1 used 650w Fresnel w/barn doors/scrim set
1 used 200w Fresnel w/barn doors/scrim set
1 4x55w Biax Fluorescent w/daylight & studio tube sets w/case for extra set, w/grid, 1/8 minus green gel
1 1000LED Bi-Color light w/ 1/4 minus green & opal frost gels
3 Used Matthews Beefy Baby stands or similar
1 Medium duty light stand
1 used C-Stand w/arm & grip head
1 5in1 collapsable reflector
1 24x36 flag
4 small pony clamps
12 C-47-closepin
3 Milk Crates

This would give you a solid starting point and 3 different lighting instrument types to build upon in any direction you see fit.
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Wow, great list David. Thanks! But you don't think having no 1K in there makes the kit a bit underpowered for my uses? Your list does have a nice mix of lighting, though. I'm guessing I will have to go with milk crates if I have to go down your route though huh? :P
 
Sure add a 1K, and or any other lights you need to fill out the kit. This is just a low budget starting point providing multiple styles of lighting. I own more than a few different lights, I think 70 at last count, and while I do have a Pelican case holding some of them, most of my smaller lights ride in large milk crates in my van. I just slide them out and pick the lights needed for the job.

Good Luck!

Dave
 
I would get a 1k, they can be usefull from time to time. As for the Florescent they can be nice as well. I currently am wanting to get one but never knew to get a 2 bank or 4 bank light. 4 bank seems better but I just cant afford it right now but never saw any advantages to the 2 bank.
 
MikeFunktastic said:
are fresnels in general so hard with its lighting that even softening them with scrims doesn't achieve a satisfactory effect?
Click to expand...

Actually it's the opposite, because with a scrimmed fresnel light you are getting a combination of soft and harder light mixed together, which produces absolutely beautiful skin tone for most people.

With fluorescent lights, they are so soft and the light is very scattered, so you don't get the combination of hard and soft light the way a fresnel does when shot through a large diffusing scrim. This is why I like to use fluorescent lights fairly close to my subject, so the light will still wrap-around a person's face and you get a very nice sculpted look. ( move the light back 5 feet and eveything looks flat as a pancake, unless you shoot in a black room or add tons of cutters to stop the light spread )

If you don't care about size or weight ( you've got truck ), then I would go with the ARRI fresnel kit, which can be used to light just about anything and fresnels last forever.
 
Back to fundamentals, every location needs a different light setup, every location has different light sources (some controllable), walls, colors, reflections, etc. There isn't a rule that works for every location.
But, we are talking about a basic light setup and it is hard to decide without know what is the light result.
Did you use a Fresnel before ? A Kinoflo ? A LED ? A HMI ?
In my case, I can do many job with a Arri kit and 2-3 fluorescent, but many times I rent some HMIs, spacelight, soft banks, etc. And many, many times I work with a DP, that has more experience than me.
But what you really need to understand is the light result, the light characteristic.
Maybe working with someone that has more experience with light setups will help you learning and understanding the concepts and results.
 
David W. Jones said:
I posted this elsewhere in another thread...

If I were putting together a first lighting kit on a budget I might do something like this...

4 25' Stingers-High quality extension cords
2 Power Strips-High Quality 1.5 amp
1 Harbor Freight Router Controller
1 used 650w Fresnel w/barn doors/scrim set
1 used 200w Fresnel w/barn doors/scrim set
1 4x55w Biax Fluorescent w/daylight & studio tube sets w/case for extra set, w/grid, 1/8 minus green gel
1 1000LED Bi-Color light w/ 1/4 minus green & opal frost gels
3 Used Matthews Beefy Baby stands or similar
1 Medium duty light stand
1 used C-Stand w/arm & grip head
1 5in1 collapsable reflector
1 24x36 flag
4 small pony clamps
12 C-47-closepin
3 Milk Crates

This would give you a solid starting point and 3 different lighting instrument types to build upon in any direction you see fit.
Click to expand...

David, another question... what is the industry standard for attaching lights to the light stands? Similar to how most shoulder gears use 15mm rods... what are the most common standards for light stands called? I see a lot of very sturdy, industrial-grade light stands on eBay, but I don't know if they can be adapted to attach fresnels / kinos / LEDs etc.

ulisses said:
Back to fundamentals, every location needs a different light setup, every location has different light sources (some controllable), walls, colors, reflections, etc. There isn't a rule that works for every location.
But, we are talking about a basic light setup and it is hard to decide without know what is the light result.
Did you use a Fresnel before ? A Kinoflo ? A LED ? A HMI ?
In my case, I can do many job with a Arri kit and 2-3 fluorescent, but many times I rent some HMIs, spacelight, soft banks, etc. And many, many times I work with a DP, that has more experience than me.
But what you really need to understand is the light result, the light characteristic.
Maybe working with someone that has more experience with light setups will help you learning and understanding the concepts and results.
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree. If I can find an experienced DP, I would definitely work with them.

I have never used any sort of lighting equipment. So far, everything I've ever done has been with only natural lighting, simple reflectors and speedlites (photography).
 
If your focusing on tungsten lighting consider open-face units too. They're much brighter than fresnels, so useful for bouncing, or punching thru diffusion frames. They're also cheap.
 
Bern Caughey said:
If your focusing on tungsten lighting consider open-face units too. They're much brighter than fresnels, so useful for bouncing, or punching thru diffusion frames. They're also cheap.
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Yes for sure. I'm looking into some Colortran units as well, they seem like good value but as more and more people find out about them it also looks like eBay prices are going up.
 
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