Are script gurus good writers?

Why would a film critic need to have been a successful film maker? Critiquing, and creating, are entirely different skillsets. Indeed, almost polar opposites.

I don't think a sportswriter needs to have been a player. They should understand the game, certainly, but they don't have to have the skillset to get out on the field and mix it up with the top-level talent in the game, and why should they? Players are rarely ever decent sportswriters, after all. Different skillsets.
 
Agreed on the sportscasters, Barry...

But coaches, on the other hand, generally have played at the collegiate level at least (if not pro). Most "gurus" haven't even played at the professional equivalent of High School Varsity...
 
Reviewers are fundamentally journalists, and almost never present or past makers/practitioners of the thing they're reviewing. They get to be well known first through their writing skill and only secondarily through their (ideally, but often not especially) comprehensive understanding of the subject. So it goes and so it will always be. Folks who complain that reviewer X has never made a (whatever the thing is) are barking up the wrong tree...
 
I stand by the comparison. One is telling you what a good film is (before the fact); while the other is telling you what a good film is (after the fact). Or, if you will, one is basically spouting "this is how to tell a good story...", while the other basically spouts "this is why you didn't tell a good story..."

Barry_Green said:
...Critiquing, and creating, are entirely different skillsets. Indeed, almost polar opposites..
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But I'm not talking about Critiquing vs. Creating...but about Critiquing vs. Guru'ing
 
Saying that teachers don't know what they're talking about because they never personally sold a script is like saying Einstein didn't know what he was talking about because he never personally built an atomic bomb.
 
vousetestouscons said:
Saying that teachers don't know what they're talking about because they never personally sold a script is like saying Einstein didn't know what he was talking about because he never personally built an atomic bomb.
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Well... please indicate where you found out that Einstein went on a 'how to build a winning A-Bomb' seminar tour, raking in thousands, all while appearing to be a dottering prof at Princeton...
 
Many directors, among whose most key responsibilities (as we all know) is directing actors' performances, are not skilled actors themselves.

So I guess we should all pretty much skip films made by those guys, right?

Guys like Hitchcock, Scorsese, Coppolla, Nolan...
 
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vousetestouscons said:
Saying that teachers don't know what they're talking about because they never personally sold a script is like saying Einstein didn't know what he was talking about because he never personally built an atomic bomb.
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I actually doubt Einstein could have built one if his life depended on it, he probably would have blown himself up along with a university lab. Theory and hands-on are different things.
 
Ted Spencer said:
Many directors, among whose most key responsibilities (as we all know) is directing actors' performances, are not skilled actors themselves. So I guess we should all pretty much skip films made by those guys, right?

Guys like Hitchcock, Scorsese, Coppolla, Lucas...
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Wouldn't a better analogy be someone who is not a director but who has studied the craft of directing actors and then who writes a book on how to direct? (cp. Michael Hauge and Syd Field studying screenwriting and then writing such how to books but not writing any screenplays themselves)?
 
Ted Spencer said:
Many directors, among whose most key responsibilities (as we all know) is directing actors' performances, are not skilled actors themselves.

So I guess we should all pretty much skip films made by those guys, right?

Guys like Hitchcock, Scorsese, Coppolla, Lucas...
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Okay, I think Ted hit it out of the park here. (Except I'd nuke the reference to Lucas, because I think he's a terrible director...)

A director is a coach, coaching the actors to give their best performances. A director doesn't have to be an actor.

And a screenplay guru is a coach, coaching the writers to write their best stories. A sports coach doesn't have to be a great player, he just needs to know how to extract the best performance from his players. And a writing coach doesn't have to be a great writer, he just has to know how to extract the best performance out of his writing students. It's the students who are supposed to be the writers, after all.
 
Barry_Green said:
(Except I'd nuke the reference to Lucas, because I think he's a terrible director...)
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Agreed, my bad, at least as far as actors go. Lucas is widely dissed by them for his clueless direction (not to mention his dialog writing). I thought better of it later, but didn't have time to come back here and edit.

Another current, ultra-successful director/non-actor like Christopher Nolan might have been a good substitution.

However, the point does stand about Lucas being a non-actor : )

Edit: fixed the previous per the above...
 
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These Gurus are in an entirely distinct business from film making. They sell promises, hope and ideologies that only they think its success proof. Another way of looking at how helpful these gurus really are, is to find out exactly how many successful writers actually endorse this or that method/guru? Sure, McKee has a big list of successful film people that attended his seminars, but they were already successful before that! Basically these gurus feed on the beginners fears of not being good enough, not knowing enough and for not being smart enough, its all BULL#*&%!

The only thing any writer needs to write is passion. Passion for film, passion for writing. Being hungry to express yourself through film is bulletproof. All these gurus advocate technique above everything else, that's why it doesn't work! Please, anyone here, let us know of a successful/good film or script that has been written according to any of these gurus methods!

It doesn't matter if they are good teachers - if what they teach doesn't get results, they're not good teachers!

If you love film enough, you'll know how a film works inside out, you'll know it in a way that nobody else will, because its your way of seeing it. But without this love, you'll never see films as a film maker. Without love, passion and commitment no one will ever, ever, write a good film, no matter what feakin' amazing technique you've might have find!

Its amazing that people spend more time reading these books than seeing films! or at least it seems that these gurus make more of an impact on their thinking, than the films themselfes! Its staggering.
 
In addition to my basic (but respectful) disagreement with you (Nuno) on almost all your points here aside from the value of simply exposing yourself to good films and being passionate about the craft, it seems to me that you must have been reading/listening to the wrong "Gurus". Which of them are you specifically referring to, who have never helped a screenwriter do better? I can certainly say for myself that what I've learned through the many books I've read by such folks has been simply invaluable. When I read scripts by other aspiring screenwriters I almost always see the kinds of problems that these gurus know how to teach you to avoid. In abundance. I don't make those mistakes in mine. But I used to...

And regarding other endorsements, my personal favorite guru, Dara Marks, has numerous of them from highly successful screenwriters on the jacket of her superb book "Inside Story". Trottier's "Screenwriter's Bible" is recommended by many very knowledgeable folks, McKee's course is endorsed by William Goldman and Dominick Dunne among others...not exactly slouches there...

And I could go on...

But are there bad "gurus" out there? Of course. There are 'bad players' in every walk of life. But characterizing an entire profession in terms of those types does a disservice to the ones who do it well. And just as in every other profession, there *are* those who do...

And I wish writing a great screenplay was 2% as easy as you like to say it is. I'd probably be a rich man...

Ok...time to go back to actually working on one now : )
 
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Ted, I'm very glad that you find useful the teachings from these writers. Anything that inspires you to write has to be a good thing. But just to clarify your views on me, yes, I have read the 'good' gurus, I've travelled abroad twice just to attend Mckee's Story and Genre seminars, also read his book (countless times). I read all Blake Snyder's, I read all of Syd Field's, I read both William Goldman's books (but this is a case appart, William Goldman actually writes honest insight), I also read all of Mamet's books (another honest 'guru'), I read Aristotle's Poetics, Julia Cameron, and I own and read lots of other 'gurus' that I find is all useless.

Trottier's book is actually helpful because he gives you specifics on how to assemble your writing according to the industry's standars, but that's more like a technical how to book, rather than a promise of a successful career or successful writing. Goldman and Mamet are not gurus, they are successful film makers that decided to put down their thoughts on what they believe is good. It worked for them, doesn't mean it will work for you.

And yes, I have written scripts, but I live in a country without a film industry, I'm not lucky enough to live in New York or LA. But still I managed to write, direct, edit and produce a short film with absolutely no money. And is now being shown all over the world in film festivals, won awards for best film, best narrative, best actress in New York, LA, London and Spain. I posted the film on various forums, as well as here on dvx and got nearly 2000 views (if you're aware, its a very big number in this category). So, I have to be doing something right...

I think I have some sort of authority when I say I don't believe in this new 'teaching' business, because I've read most of them, and I was never able to write from start to finish any story according to their teachings, no matter how seductive and insightful their teachings were. The moment I stopped thinking about them and concentrated on what I loved to watch, and what I wanted to see, the magic happened...

The moment you act on submission to someone else's approach, rather than your own, I firmly believe you'll never create something truly worth of merit or quality.

But hey, to each is own. If it works for you or for the other, who am I to say it doesn't...
 
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