Are actors willing to work only on weekends over a few months time for $0?

It's all good if the actor agrees to work for free at the outset. I do it all the time. I've gotten a lot of good experience and knowledge from it. The 'free actor' market is actually quite competitive, at least in places like here in NYC. Probably lots of other places too.
 
I have done aprox 50 low budget productions ranging from $5K to $75K and have paid every actor/model that ever worked for me, except for documentary interviews.

I am sure there are a lot of people willing to work for $0. But I would think a promise of some deferred payment if the project makes money would help your cause. I also think you need to offer some perks such as good food and drinks on set as a minimum. Also make everyone feel that they are an integral part of the production and let them have a lot of input specific to their jobs on set. Make them a part of the project as much as you can with out losing control of your vision. Interested and enthusiastic people will come back every week and make for a better project. No one will want to give up their time week after week working for a tyrant or feel under appreciated. Good psychology will go a long way with your people.
 
I read through the thread a few times before I decided to respond to your query.

I'm going to side with Barry on this one. Now I realize that everyone is well aware of the way your show will operate. And I hear the other responses that you are getting stating that this shouldn't be an issue since everyone knows that it will take x amount of time and there is food/credit/copy.

However, you are missing a key factor here. 6months.

I came off a independent ultralow last month that I AD'd. It was scheduled to take a month and a half. Everyone (30-40 people on set everyday, including cast and crew) was in it for credit/copy/food. No pay.

Needless to say the production is currently on extended hiatus with principal photography to resume in feb 2010.

We hit delay after delay. The cast quickly realized a month and change was a significant amount of time, and they quickly lost interest. The crew was pushed to the limit with extended days and shooting weekends straight. That wouldn't have been an issue if there was something more in it than "experience" and "credit/copy". People do have lives, for the most part. A month and a half was a long time to be working on one show. Now Hollywood does that all the time, but they are shooting through the week, it's a job and people are paid. And the entire thing is planned out very well. That and everyone is a professional.

Here, we don't have that luxury.

We sacrificed other work, freetime, and patience. All of us knew what we were getting into. That's not even a question. We were on contract too. But that didn't change the fact after a while, we lost interest.

And when that happened, it was all downhill.

I'd recommend hiring a capable first AD to help you sked the show. But even with the best AD staff in the world, 6 months is a sizable amount of time.

Cut the show down. I'm sure if you look at your overall plan, you can kill a lot of your shoot dates. I'd almost say you have to cut down on that time. Because if the show isn't the best show in the world, people will lose interest. They'll want their weekends back.

It can be done, but I don't think you are going to have much luck on a 6month shooting sked.
 
I think we should create a whole list of anecdotes where getting free labor actually cost the production more money then if they paid those people in the first place, that way we could put an end to those "free-labor works" threads and people could see how it's morally wrong and wrong from business perspective not to pay.
 
Here is a few:

On a $3000/day feature the producer/director had such a desire to save money that he chose to park on a payed parking lot without paying hopping that somehow he will get away with it. IN the morning the grip truck was towed and it cost the production $750 to get the truck back and loss of the production time for half a day (about $1500).

RESULT: Trying to save himself $50/night parking fee (about $900 for whole production) cost him $2250 and the headache to reschedule the lost half-day.



On a $2800/day shoot the producer insisted that we can't add any more crew (2x extra crew members at $100/person = $400 for 2 days) and any more lights ($300) to the order. I tried to persuade him that his scene in the forest at night needs to be re-thought or it will cause tremendous delays. Sure enough the lighting took forever (about 3 hours as opposed to 1 hours that it would take in normal condition). The rush to complete the schedule and make up the lost 2 hours cause the AD and the director to miss a crucial scene (after the lighting was taken down) thus we needed to light again (another 3 hour delay). So the total delay was 5 hours which cost he production about $1150.

RESULT: Instead of spending extra $700 for extra crew and gear in the first place they lost money and, what's more important, the lost of 5 hours cost them extra coverage that could mean great scene as opposed to an average one.


On the same $2800/day shoot the producer insisted to ferry the crew from NYC to a remote location every day for 6 days. Each way it cost the production 1.5 hours (3 hours total per day were lost out of the shooting schedule only to ferry the crew). The 3 hours cost the production $705 ($2800 divided by 12 hours). It would cost them the same amount to put the crew up in the local hotel but the result would give the producer about 2 extra hours of work out of the crew.

RESULT: For same amount of money the production could get extra 2 hours of on set-time that would result in better footage.



On a $3500/day short I insisted to the producer/director to hire someone as his right hand as the stress of the production will stop him from concentrating on the direction. Sure enough the savings of about $750 cost him $17500 as he had to re-shoot the whole project as despite the fact that it did look great, with cool lighting, locations etc the performances were dreadful and often he wasn't even on the set to watch the performance as he had to take some scheduling conflict. Obviously it 's an extreme case where the director wasn't often even on the set to direct... still it did cost him serious money.

RESULT: The $750 savings on getting an AD cost the production it's production (about $17500).
 
There's going to be plenty of situations where not paying people will backfire. Its kind of the risk you take when you ask people to do anything at all for free.. not just this.

In my personal project. I have listed on every single casting call post that the project is NOT paid, BUT.. if the production makes money, YOU will make money. It doesn't list specific amounts, or anything else.. but, if we are able to pay our crew/cast, by golly we will. But, If I budgeted paying every single crew member, and every single cast member up front. I would have to push back the film for another year or two.. and then between that time maybe I might even lose interest. Heck, so far.. I have learned that actors are the flakiest human beings known to man.. second only to band members. Its hard to spot which ones are flaky, and it doesn't matter if you pay those or not.. they will still flake on you when they lose interest.

Film making is an art form, and everyone on the cast/crew is producing a work of art. If you paint a painting, your not guaranteed to sell it for alot of money.. or even any money at all. Its the risk you take. My production is on a "If we get paid, you get paid" philosophy. Meaning, if the film makes any money at all.. it will be divided between the cast and crew.. and then the rest goes to the production of the next film.. until eventually we can pay our cast and crew like a "Real" movie production.

I don't agree with 100% asking people to work for free. With no expectations of paying them. I will feed mine, put them up with a place to stay if they need it, and in some cases pay for gas. But, they won't get paid for their work.. until the work has been done, and the product sold.

Paying people doesn't guarantee you anything.
 
Saying that the project is NOT paid you are limiting yourself to work only with armatures as anyone that has done it long enough will ask for at least minimum wage. Thus you are closing a huge pool of potential talent, resources and experience.

"if the production makes money, YOU will make money"
this only means you have no experience on production with real money as if you did work on those you would know how hard it is to make money by selling your film afterwards. It's actually close to winning a lottery. In a way a filmmaker working on no budget productionm is shooting himself in the foot, but he doesn't do it only once, but 3 times. Fisrt by not raising any money he sets himself out to create a crappy production with crappy lighting, crappy camera, crappy acting, crappy locations, secondly by not raising any money he doesn't take a salary for himself and only stakes his luck on a lottery ticket of "what if i sell this film," third he hopes to sell a crappy production in a marketplace that is already saturated with quaility productions that those in turn have hard enough time to sell. Think about it, in the fundraising phase you at least could promise golden mountains and who knows maybe the stars would aligh perfectly and maybe you will win a lottery ticket by bringing the production to a succesffuf finish, but when you try to sell your no budget production when it gets done you are not selling dreams anymore but reality - and in 9999 out of 10,000 cases the reality is dreadfull.

"It doesn't list specific amounts, or anything else."
Then you are setting yourself up for a legal failure in case you do win that golden ticket.

"I have learned that actors are the flakiest human beings known to man"
Of course, because you are NOT PAYING THEM!

"Film making is an art form"
Only to the director. Any other position is mostly craft then art form. Thus you are asking your DP, editor, producer, etc to be a craftsman first before you are asking them to be artist. On top of that besides the few positions that do have some artistry to them there are tons of positions that is craft only.

"Paying people doesn't guarantee you anything."
Then NOT paying them guarantees you even less.
 
I just think there are too many factors that will attribute to a good production over just "Did I pay my actors?"

I played more than 100 shows for free in one of the bands I was in. The ones being snobbish and picky about pay played ALOT less shows than us, and in the end didn't get signed to a record label, and didn't have near as many fans as us. It works both ways. I honestly don't want you if all you care about is how much your going to get paid. Its as bad as caring about what camera we are shooting on. If you love what you do, then pay is really a minor issue. I'm not getting paid either, and all the money other than donations is out my own pocket and the other members of my "crew". Maybe I should ask the actors to pay me to be in my movie.

Actors are flaky whether or not you pay them or not... thats just people. I have coworkers who make 20.00 an hr, and only have to work 4 days a week with a three day weekend.. with great benefits.. and they STILL don't show up like they should, and when they DO show up.. they do the minimum required of them. I don't want people who are just doing this to get paid, I want people who enjoy acting. I'm not saying that there aren't quality actors who enjoy getting paid. I'm just stating that I can't work with people who have that attitude and do not want them, paid or not. I don't know how many have worked for "free", but I've done my fair share of it on all sorts of projects, and I can safely say I wouldn't be where I am now if I hadn't. Being picky doesn't help you move forward, sometimes it helps you move further back than where you started.

You have to start somewhere. I guess my band should have only played gigs where we got paid. I'm guessing that 100 shows would have turned in to about 30. Gonna be rather difficult to get a record deal with that...

I'm also from a small smalll... small.. town in Southern Ga.. the things people might do in NYC and LA don't apply here. My film is the equivalent of a birthday present for my town. I've gotten email after email, about how awesome they think what we are doing is. I've gotten free locations, free food, free equipment, donations, free tv and newspaper spots, free law enforcement, and free "whatever I need". I doubt you could do any of that in NYC.

I totally and utterly agree that actors "should" get paid when it is applicable. If I was in NYC or LA, I wouldn't even think about making a film without having funds to pay everyone "first". But paying people doesn't make them any less flaky, or any more reliable. It just means at the end of the day, they'll have more money in their pocket and you'll have less.

I'll take my chances. I've got 24 of 26 roles filled so far, we'll see if I have issues I suppose!
 
Well , you can only agree that if you put your philosophy like ""If we get paid, you get paid" , people will react to any pressure with the same philosophy
"If I feel ok to get out of my bed today, i will come, " philosophy, so leading to flaky behavior.
As stated, this can work on short period, but getting more than a few people involved for several month is just silly.
 
nosys70 said:
Well , you can only agree that if you put your philosophy like ""If we get paid, you get paid" , people will react to any pressure with the same philosophy
"If I feel ok to get out of my bed today, i will come, " philosophy, so leading to flaky behavior.
As stated, this can work on short period, but getting more than a few people involved for several month is just silly.
Click to expand...

People already react to that philosophy, every single day. Heck, as soon as I get in my car and head down to my place of work.. people will be reacting to it. Someone won't show up today, and we are getting paid.. quite a bit might I add..

People are lazy, and will be lazy regardless of anything you might do to keep them from being that way.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I'm just saying that none of us are right, because nothing always ever happens the same way. I'll let you all know how my project goes, and if it "fails" you'll be right on this one occassion. But if If it succeeds, I'll be correct in my statement that not every situation works exactly the same, and just because someone else failed doesn't mean I will.

What we all agree on here is that paying actors is better than not paying actors. What we don't agree on is that I don't believe I should toss out my entire idea of making a film because I can't pay people up front. There are people who are ok with it, and as long as those people exist. We have no issues. Thats the cool thing about people, they come in all forms.
 
"I should toss out my entire idea of making a film ..."
Not at all, i should definitely fight to get your project made.
This means, you have to put all the chances on your side.
This means paying someone is one of the way to show the project is important. Because everybody knows how difficult it is to find money and almost everybody respect that.
But as you mentionned , there are other ways. Having a BIG charisma is another way, offering perspectives works also.
Keeping the project well packed, organized, short in time is a reward too for everybody.
There is nothing worse than people just waiting for something to happens on a set. Or an ever changing planning.
you let them think that next time, they could come later or not at all, it would be the same.
You can not tell to people they are important and then let them on a chair with 3 hours without instructions.
I have seen so many project where the guy asked for everybody to be there a saturday at 7 in the morning, and the real work start really only at 1 in the afternoon. The next day when the guy asked for everybody at 9 in the morning, guess what ? most of people came 2 hours late..

But above everything it is the way you do it.
If you pay people and let them believe it is easy money for you and them , it won't work. (Usually you do not care to steal money from filthy reach people)
If you make promises and let them believe it is BS, it won't work.
It is not given to everybody to have the power to be a leader and drive a project. Most of time the main failure is the leader believe only in his project, and not enough in himself (lack of ego, people respect big EGO even if they don't like it) and in other (charisma).
Another trick is to have a very good catering (food and drink). you wont get people following you a long time with cheap sandwiches.
good luck
 
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Thats more or less what I am getting at. I'm fairly new at this stuff, but I've already been complimented on how I am running the project. Most of the actors have told me that this has been one of the more professional projects they've had a chance to work on, due to my fast response times and one on one communication that I keep with them constantly. everyone knows at any given time whats going on with the production, and with as many unorganized productions as there are.. they appreciate that alot more sometimes than the amount of $$$ they will get. Usually, not getting paid goes hand in hand with an unorganized, BS production.. but it doesn't always work that way. I've had people who are alot more experienced than I would consider using because I would feel intimidated by their experience, and by the fact that I could not pay them contact me because of how organized and detailed I have been with my project. They WANT to work with me, even though they won't get paid. Sure, if you do things half assed everywhere else.. it will show.

My actors are worth every penny that I wish I could pay them, and if it turns out that I can.. I will.
 
I also agree 100% with Patryk. I was going to say this in my last post but I didn't want to rain on the OP's parade. There will be that 1 guy that will pull it off and make some money. Realistically "You get what you pay for" or is it "You get what you don't pay for". I learned the hard way a long time ago. Been there done that and never again.
 
Azmyth, even though i wish you luck on your project you can't reject the wisdom collected by working on at least few hundred if not thousand productions of all above members that warn you against doing it. We've all been there, done that, got burnt and are now advising against it. Not even on moral grounds but because it's simply bad business decision as most likely you WILL burn money.
 
Azmyth, so out of curiosity i did the following budget for any tiny "no-budget" film (production ONLY).
15 day shoot. 12 hours each day.

Director: $100/day = $1500
Producer/AD = $100/day = $1500
Junior DP + camera + gear: $400/day = $6000
Lighting person: $150/day = $2250
Camera PA: $100/day = $1500
Sound + gear: $200/day = $3000
PA: $50/day = $750

Actor 1: $50/day = $750
Actor 2: $50/day = $750
Actor 3: $50/day = $250 (5 days)

Gear truck = $50/day = $750
15 pass van = $600/week = $1800

Wardrobe: free provider by the actors
Locations: free
Food: $100/day = $1000

Above TOTAL: $21800
10% unforseen expenses: $2200

TOTAL BUDGET: $24000
 
Here's my budget.. I really don't mind sharing.

Director = Free
Producer = Me = Free
AD = associate/friend = Free
DP + Camera + Gear = Friend, Free... Gear, actor/friend.. free.. Camera.. I own it.. free..
Lighting person = Friend = Free
Sound + Gear = friend = I own the gear = Free
PA's x ever how many I happen to need = Free

Actors x 26 = Free until production is completed, providing meals, and a place to stay and gas money in some cases.

Gear truck = several SUV's = Free
Food = provided by president of chamber by local restaurants and people I know who cater = Free or extremely low cost.

Locations = Free, all donated by people I know and the chamber.
Wardrobe = 200.00 for sale Halloween costumes, 100.00 for whatever thrift shop items we can't provide ourselves from our own closets.
Props = Free (guy in town builds them, and has a stockpile already.)
Law Enforcement security = Free (we are even using a 50s police car they have graciously given us permission to use.
Ambulance = Free (via local EMTs who are helping)
1978 red chevy nova = Free = local car club
Hair Makeup = free = 3 local salons
Special effects = 1000.00 Friend supplies only.

Total: 1300.00

Probably some other stuff I could throw in, but we literally are getting nearly everything for free. And its almost all because I know the right people, and have the right friends. That on top of the fact that films don't shoot here. Its a spectacle for the community and they are all up for being a part of it.

I agree with you totally, if I was in NYC or somewhere where this stuff is common. It just isn't here. Ask someone to donate something in one of those places, and you will get laughed at.

Just down the road from here, two brothers are on their 4th feature film. The very first one they did, was shot on a canon prosumer camera with ALL volunteer actors from the local area.

Their newest one currently out is called Fireproof.. and as the films progressed, the production value got higher, and of course they are paying Kirk Cameron obviously.

PS. I'm not trying to come off as being condescending or anything. I 100% agree with you, in the setting your talking about. My experience is not the norm for sure, and I am very grateful for all the help in these forums and from the people who are providing so much to make this film a reality. I'm also not the OP.. I already gave my production scheduled and ready to go.. so I'm not sure why I chimed in anyway..lol
 
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That's great you are getting everything for free. I've pulled in a 24 dollar budget on a short before. It was actually for a script I acquired from a writer here on the forum.

But I don't think it's generally a good idea to tell someone that method is guaranteed to work. What you (Azm) is pulling off is great, but by no means a statistical norm.

A lot of members have chimed in warning against the "free" mentality. More have warned against the "you get paid when we get paid" ideal. Since 99.9% of the thousands of indie films made per year never see a dime.

Not saying you are totally wrong here, but your method is only one method and it certainly doesn't work in every single case. Just something to keep in mind.
 
Mattykins said:
That's great you are getting everything for free. I've pulled in a 24 dollar budget on a short before. It was actually for a script I acquired from a writer here on the forum.

But I don't think it's generally a good idea to tell someone that method is guaranteed to work. What you (Azm) is pulling off is great, but by no means a statistical norm.

A lot of members have chimed in warning against the "free" mentality. More have warned against the "you get paid when we get paid" ideal. Since 99.9% of the thousands of indie films made per year never see a dime.

Not saying you are totally wrong here, but your method is only one method and it certainly doesn't work in every single case. Just something to keep in mind.
Click to expand...

Oh I agree with you, and have agreed with most everyone on those aspects. I was just trying to point out like you, that not every situation follows a set rule and there is definitely room for some oddballs who get lucky. Such as I have with this project. Actors just starting out, will often times work for free.. or more experienced actors looking for a specific type of film they haven't done, or more footage for a reel to get bigger projects that do pay. You also have those who will not work on anything unless they get paid, because they've moved past the "freebie" phase of their career.

I'm definitely not saying that you should just always expect to get everything for free.. but when your first starting out.. it sure does help!

Like I said, I haven't seen it as much in the film industry yet.. but from what I can tell the music industry is not much different.. When you first start.. you learn to play on borrowed/pawn shop instruments.. you play with friends, and you play for free... eventually you move up to better instruments, and you play with better people, and sometimes you get paid... eventually if you play your cards right, you'll get paid all the time, and be sought after by all the best promoters/clubs/labels.

The same applies here I would think.
 
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