Apple dumps Intel and shows Final Cut Pro on new Mac with Apple CPU !

paulears said:
I never even noticed how Macs handle screen resolution... However they do it, it works.
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Yes it "just works" if you want what Apple allows you to have. When you want something different then there's a problem. It's Apple's way or the highway.

I had a dual-six-core 2012 Mac Pro back in 2014 and I liked how I could easily upgrade its RAM, install SSD drives, upgrade the GPU, and install PCIe cards for fast I/O. I was beginning to work with 4K footage and the Mac Pro could handle it pretty well.

I purchased one of the first 4K monitors available which was $2000 back then. I was shocked when it wouldn't work with my MP. Thinking it was a GPU issue I purchased a new top-of-the-line GPU that could output a 4K 60Hz signal ($2000 back then). But even with the new GPU the monitor wouldn't work. The 2013 Mac Pro Trashcan was able to handle two 4K monitors, so I knew that it wasn't an OSX issue. Except that IT WAS an OSX issue.

It turns out that Apple deliberately crippled the 2012 Mac Pro so it could never work with 4K monitors, even if the GPU could handle it. By the time I realized this I could not return either the monitor or the GPU. I had to sell them on Ebay for a big loss. That was JUST ONE of many reasons why I moved away from Apple and now I build my own PCs.

Apple, thanks but no thanks, I'll take the highway.
 
You have to critically-think about what you're even saying.

4K in 2012 was like HD in the early 2000s.

It's impressive that you were ahead of the curve but it was practically unheard of for almost anyone on the planet to be using 4K equipment besides the .01%.

IIRC, all of those older Mac Pros (or almost every model) had display support that maxed out at 2560x1600 so maybe they weren't even optimized to handle 4K, even with a different GPU.

All it took was one more year and Apple supported 4K+ in every TB2+ computer they made since the 2013 redesigned model.

Windows is great, but this isn't a very reasonable complaint, IMO.
 
It was late 2014 / early 2015. The Panasonic GH4 came out in May 2014. I wasn't the only person shooting 4K back then.
 
It was a bit tongue-in-cheek as the GH4, FS7 and BMPC all came in 2014 which were 99% of people's first 4K cameras.

But just a few years like 2012 was really uncommon.
 
I have Mac Pro 2009 and M1 Mini plugged into a 4k monitor. I only have Radeon 5870 HD which doesn't support 4k so I can't say Apple did anything wrong. I think 4k monitors were not affordable until a couple of years ago. Even though I can physical insert a new card into my mac I can't upgrade the OS to support a newer card. To be fair you would need to compare a similar aged board and Windows OS to make an Apples to Apples comparison. ;-)
 
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Benjobe said:
Yes it "just works" if you want what Apple allows you to have. When you want something different then there's a problem. It's Apple's way or the highway.
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This is the problem.
I note the new Macs now have both the main memory and SSD drives soldered directly to the motherboard. Added to which Apple is using more and more propriety chips that are not available to 3rd party repairers. So the only place you will be able to get a Mac fixed is Apple. They are expensive and seem to take the easy option of replacing the main board (expensive charge) rather than repair.

There are also reports that for some of the M1 Macs were people have not maxed out the ram that the system is using vitual memory on the SSD drive. In a lot of cases this is a much higher usage of the SSD than normal and estimations are that many of these macs will have SSD failures in 2-3 years. This will be a "motherboard failure"
The problem is now that any motherboard fix means that ALL the contents of your storage goes with it.
So you will need to keep ALL Sw downloads, registration and key's emails in a separate place off your computer. Though ass the SDD, CPU, network MAC address etc will all change you will probably need to get new licenses from the supplier. Unless this is a way to force you to buy everything though the Apple store...

For me after 20 years of using Apple we are moving to PC's We can swap out any and all of it as we need to. Not just increasing memory and adding more (or replacing) hard drives. There is also a lot more choice on things like graphics cards and other add in cards.
 
Benjobe said:
Yes it "just works" if you want what Apple allows you to have. When you want something different then there's a problem. It's Apple's way or the highway.

I had a dual-six-core 2012 Mac Pro back in 2014 and I liked how I could easily upgrade its RAM, install SSD drives, upgrade the GPU, and install PCIe cards for fast I/O. I was beginning to work with 4K footage and the Mac Pro could handle it pretty well.

I purchased one of the first 4K monitors available which was $2000 back then. I was shocked when it wouldn't work with my MP. Thinking it was a GPU issue I purchased a new top-of-the-line GPU that could output a 4K 60Hz signal ($2000 back then). But even with the new GPU the monitor wouldn't work. The 2013 Mac Pro Trashcan was able to handle two 4K monitors, so I knew that it wasn't an OSX issue. Except that IT WAS an OSX issue.

It turns out that Apple deliberately crippled the 2012 Mac Pro so it could never work with 4K monitors, even if the GPU could handle it. By the time I realized this I could not return either the monitor or the GPU. I had to sell them on Ebay for a big loss. That was JUST ONE of many reasons why I moved away from Apple and now I build my own PCs.

Apple, thanks but no thanks, I'll take the highway.
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I think you would find if you had a 2012 PC at the time it could have faced other issues trying to handle a 4k workflow. Eventually PCs cannot be upgraded either or if they can they probably shouldn't be. We can push a PC beyond what it was really designed to handle. That may seem cool at first to stick it to the man but it may not provide the best results in the end vs just getting a new computer. Chipsets and instruction sets change. Even though PCI-express is kind of backwards compatible a GPU takes a massive hit when used in an older PCI-E slot.

Yes Apple was a bit behind the curve in adopting 4k and one of their problems is not being able to support future display technology. With that said you said it yourself the computer was great at editing 4k. If you really wanted a true 4k output in 2014 you should have bought an affordable Blackmagic Design PCI-e card to get a proper 4k output. Sure the UI of your main displays may not be 4k but your 4k edit monitor could have totally been used on that MP.

Even if a newer GPU did allow 4k from the 2012 MP I think you would have still felt that system hit a ceiling in a year or two anyway. Lots of technology changes with each generation of CPU and Xeons are typically a generation or two behind desktop CPUs. While the system worked for you well in 2014 I think performance wise it would started to feel its age sooner than you think. Thanks to Intel sockets there is only so much one can do to upgrade a CPU. You typically need to replace the entire motherboard at that point as well.

I'm just not into all of that anymore. I would rather sell what I have and get a new system I know is well optimized for the current state of things.

Plus I'm not entirely sure the market for computer components is going to be there forever. Manufacturers like Dell, Asus, Ryzen, HP and Acer make up the majority of Windows PCs sold. PC gaming in a small sliver of the PC market and video production an even tinier sliver. Eventually the only way to get a Windows machine may be a prebuilt system. More gamers are moving towards laptops as well so they can take it with them. The world is changing and many of the PC games I would normally get I can now get on the Nintendo Switch which is $299 vs an at least $1,000 PC. I work with a lot of software developers and some of them have ditched the gaming PC to just use consoles. For the price of a solid gaming PC they can buy a PS, Xbox and Switch and likely cover almost 100% of decent released games. My point is video production alone and a few die hard PC gamers are not enough to keep that market going forever. You are going to see the PC market continue to shift towards laptops, all-in-ones and compact type systems and away from large desktops that can be upgraded. Users are increasingly buying laptops and more condensed desktops like all-in-ones.

There is this philosophy if Apple is forcing users in a certain direction or are they just targeting what most users actually want. I'm not talking about the power users but our parents and grand parents. Our neighbors who surf for porn and watch Youtube on a computer and thats about it. Apple knows video production makes up a super small percentage of computer users. Those that do work with video can already do so on a iPhone, tablet or MBA. A lot of the YouTube personalities out there pulling I the big bucks do not need a lot of video processing power and they are putting out 4k. Thanks to FCPX we can do some pretty impressive things on base model MBA laptops. Renders may take a few more minutes and rendering 3D animation can take longer but very few computers today are not capable of producing cutting edge 4k video.

Sure someday you may be able to stick another $300 or $400 into your PC to upgrade it but I personally would rather buy a Mac and sell it for that same $300 - $400 difference to get a new one. In the end we are both out $300 - $400 and have what we need. In my case everything inside is new and I have a 3 year warranty again.

This is not about which way is better or worse. Its only about what makes sense to each person. I prefer to not fart around looking for the right upgrades, messing with drivers and all of that. I used to build PCS for video production so I know what I'm doing but I just don't want to anymore. I want to do what my career is and not also put on an IT hat. Others prefer the psychological high and satisfaction they get from extending the life of an old computer. Cool. To each their own but not one is the better solution. Its different two solutions to meet the same goals. In the end I'm not sure one or the other really saves all that much cash. Its also just money and for those of us that use these tools to earn money I'm not going to stress over saving a couple hundred bucks.
 
Thomas makes good points.

- It doesn't make sense upgrading a old mac or a pc with a new video card. In this case even if you could put the latest video card into a 2012 Mac Pro, while it would display 4k, it would be woefully slow editing 4k. So what would be the point.

Places where upgrades were useful to me were when I made an initial purchase with minimum ram, hard dive and video card, then later added or upgraded to extend the life of the computer or add new technologies that weren't available at the time like USB3, Bluetooth, etc. So these upgrades enhance what the computer was good at but once the technology advances past a certain point it usually doesn't make sense to upgrade one component because you are only as fast as your weakest link.

It's no secret Apple has increasing moved towards devices can't be upgraded.
 
My old PC had an Intel i7 860 in it (4 cores, 8 threads) from 2009, and I only bought a new one last year because new graphics cards would not fit into the case. Otherwise, I would still be rocking it.
Also, AMD sockets can be used for years without the need to buy a new mainboard.

Thomas Smet said:
PC gaming in a small sliver of the PC market and video production an even tinier sliver.
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It may be a niche, or even a niche in a niche, but PC gaming and video editing hardware have way higher margins than mainstream computing, and PC gaming is very important for the image of brands. Who has the fastest CPU, GPU, SSD...

And PC critics have been saying "PC is dead!" for like thirty years now, without it ever becoming true!
 
JAMedia said:
With a potential life span of 2-4 years

That is 2-4 years before non-replaceble motherboard components fail
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Where's the data to back this up? Asking genuinely because I'm interested in learning what the failed percentage of Apple hardware is for consumers around the world.

Personally, my day-to-day "tasks" computer is a 2013 MBA that's only had its battery replaced after 2078 cycles.
 
NorBro said:
Where's the data to back this up? Asking genuinely because I'm interested in learning what the failed percentage of Apple hardware is for consumers around the world.

Personally, my day-to-day "tasks" computer is a 2013 MBA that's only had its battery replaced after 2078 cycles.
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Have a look for Louis Rothman on YouTube. He runs a 3rd party Mac repair shop in New York. HE did a video on this recently. It is mainly a problem wit the macbooks and imacs with less main memory than they need for the applications they are running. Apparently they are giving very good performance, much better than expected so people are buying them with minimal RAM. The problem is they are using virtual memory on the SSD. The SSD is fast and people are not noticing any slowdown because the machines are so fast. The problem is it is thrashing the SSD's with far higher than average cycles. It was Louis who worked out with some tests that these Macbooks, depending on use could fail in 2-4 years. That is as the SSD is discrete chips directly soldered to the motherboard users can't replace them. Due to Apple restricting as many IC's as it can non-Apple repair shops may not be able to get the parts. IF they can even replace them on the motherboard. It is all surface mount parts

Therefore this is a motherboard swap if Apple does it. You did have back ups of all the data and apps on the computer (and all the license keys)? Also it means a new SSD id number, a new motherboard number, a new , MAC network number etc... SO unless you can log in to the Apple App store and reload you are in for a world of pain.

Check Louis Rothman and I think Linus Tech Tips did something on it too.
 
I read about the potential SSD issue on 9to5 a week or so after the computers started shipping, but I felt like the overall consensus was we'll just have to wait and see what happens in a few years at it was too early to tell.

In general, they may be correct because the logic makes sense, but they are also running a content creation business and making a video simply saying "we'll see what happens in a few years" isn't very dramatic or appealing.
 
NorBro said:
I read about the potential SSD issue on 9to5 a week or so after the computers started shipping, but I felt like the overall consensus was we'll just have to wait and see what happens in a few years at it was too early to tell.

In general, they may be correct because the logic makes sense, but they are also running a content creation business and making a video simply saying "we'll see what happens in a few years" isn't very dramatic or appealing.
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Louis Rothman wasn't going to do any MAc M1 videos because as he says they only see Macs when they fail and need repairing. However due to the fuss about the SSD's he did some tests on what the actual throughput to the SSD's was. Others are doing the same.

The bottom line is to make sure you start off with the maximum amount of RAM you will need long term. Of course this is VERY expensive to do. This is why when people buying Macs with 8GB were delighted at the performance. That is when people started looking into it and measuring what the SSD usage was. It will come down to what apps you have loaded and are using and how much often you do it and.... The thing was for a the rate of data going on and off the SSD for many of the users tested was way higher than expected. I expect over the next few months more reliable data will come out.

I am assuming Apple have done the same calculations and tests to ensure most failures will be outside the warrantee period? Apple care is 3 years?
 
The thing about it though - as terrible as this sounds - this is how you build and run a monopoly. lol

In the electronics industry, creating a product that you control entirely is a corporation's dream, and it's never been a secret that companies hinder performance through programming, so what they are doing or accused of doing isn't exactly surprising.

Everyone's hard earned money should earn them a product that they can keep forever, but the way people go nuts with upgrading their iPhones every year, it seems like if the computers work for at least 3-4 years then that's pretty good considering the price most paid which was probably between $700-$1600.

$5000+ cameras may sometimes develop issues after 12-24 months.

I have a collection of Apple computers that still work but this is different and a lot has changed since 2006.
 
NorBro said:
$5000+ cameras may sometimes develop issues after 12-24 months.

I have a collection of Apple computers that still work but this is different and a lot has changed since 2006.
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I have a gamer notebook I bought in 2008, which still runs the newest version of Windows 10. It is in my room at my parents. Only thing I changed was a adding a cheap SSD, but it would still work in its original configuration. It has my only Blu-ray drive left inside. :)
 
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I have a pre-trashcan MAC pro and a couple of macbook pros but I can change Ram, HDD/SSD, battery, etc and 3rd party mac repairers can actually fix them. You can't do any of that with the new macs.
Apple lost their way about 5-10 years ago.
 
JAMedia said:
Have a look for Louis Rothman on YouTube. He runs a 3rd party Mac repair shop in New York. HE did a video on this recently. It is mainly a problem wit the macbooks and imacs with less main memory than they need for the applications they are running. Apparently they are giving very good performance, much better than expected so people are buying them with minimal RAM. The problem is they are using virtual memory on the SSD. The SSD is fast and people are not noticing any slowdown because the machines are so fast. The problem is it is thrashing the SSD's with far higher than average cycles. It was Louis who worked out with some tests that these Macbooks, depending on use could fail in 2-4 years. That is as the SSD is discrete chips directly soldered to the motherboard users can't replace them. Due to Apple restricting as many IC's as it can non-Apple repair shops may not be able to get the parts. IF they can even replace them on the motherboard. It is all surface mount parts

Therefore this is a motherboard swap if Apple does it. You did have back ups of all the data and apps on the computer (and all the license keys)? Also it means a new SSD id number, a new motherboard number, a new , MAC network number etc... SO unless you can log in to the Apple App store and reload you are in for a world of pain.

Check Louis Rothman and I think Linus Tech Tips did something on it too.
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I understand the concern but the MBP has used SSD since at least 2014 now and used virtual memory with all Macs at that point limited to 8GB or 16GB of ram. Many of those SSDs are still going strong. I say this as my work computer was a 2014 15” MBP with only 16 GB and just recently had to replace it. It wasn’t the SSD that failed either. That’s at least 7 years of daily thrashing and abuse building mobile apps.

I now have my own personal M1 MBA with 8GB and a work M1 MBA with 16GB and due to the much lower cost I honestly don’t care if the SSD fails in 7 years. I had the 8GB MBA since December and when checking the SSD usage it’s still under 1%. I’m pretty sure it’s going to be fine and this was a blown out of portion theory sparked by a few horribly implemted M1 support applications. Yes the swap file uses more write cycles but Apple tends to use flash storage with a lot more write cycles than other cheaper flash storage devices. I have had Macs with flash storage way outlast other SSD drives I have used.

Given the $900 cost vs a $2,400 larger MBP I’m also perfectly fine replacing it twice as often. In fact I now prefer that and in 3 years I can get the latest MBA that will very likely be faster than a 3 year old larger MBP. I can see more concern when we do get the new 16” models that will cost at least $2,400 but those will have a minimum of at least 16GB and will likely last as long as any previous 15” and 16” MBP that used swap memory which as of most of us has been at least 7 years without failure.
 
JAMedia said:
I have a pre-trashcan MAC pro and a couple of macbook pros but I can change Ram, HDD/SSD, battery, etc and 3rd party mac repairers can actually fix them. You can't do any of that with the new macs.
Apple lost their way about 5-10 years ago.
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That’s not losing their way. Most consumers don’t want to upgrade or replace that stuff. Just like our cell phones and tablets which cost just as much as the M1 Macs people don’t care anymore. We live in a screw it just get a new machine culture now. Apple knew this and adapted to this mindset of user. If you personally don’t like this that is totally fine but don’t assume you speak for the rest of us by saying Apple lost its way.

I don’t have any stats but I’m willing to bet the number of people that actually upgraded ram on older machines is very low. I’m sure the number that had to replace the flash storage after failure is even lower.

Funny how successful and more popular Apple gets with users that we hear things like it lost it’s way. Their increasing market share says otherwise and perhaps they are in fact doing something right.

You are looking at all of this from an old school perspective as I once did. I hung on to my 2011 17” until last year because I could replace everything. I did upgrade the ram and SSD and swapped out the DVD drive for a second SSD. It was old and slow however and had crappy ports. It provided almost zero value over getting a new computer. In fact I likely wasted money in an attempt to extend its usefulness. Each upgrade did help but in the end it still wasn’t enough to match what getting a new computer would have benefitted me.

Yeah perhaps the flash storage should be replaceable but if they have lasted 7+ years so far with swap memory then I think we will all be fine. That’s also 7+ years as a power user doing video, 3D animation, app development and grossly abusing web browser tabs and open applications. The majority of consumers will not be thrashing the swap file on a daily basis.
 
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