anyone use a color meter???

P

powerdog

Veteran
Let's say you have two opportunities to see a location, the first without equipment and the second with all your equipment. Each time you have to be as quick and efficient as possible.

Would it be helpful to have a color meter with you the first time, so you can take readings of color temps and know what filters/gels to bring along?

I've read more about them being used for still photography than video.
 
powerdog said:
Let's say you have two opportunities to see a location, the first without equipment and the second with all your equipment. Each time you have to be as quick and efficient as possible.

Would it be helpful to have a color meter with you the first time, so you can take readings of color temps and know what filters/gels to bring along?

I've read more about them being used for still photography than video.
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You are not going to gain anything with a color meter for video.
 
Forgive my ignorance, Walter, but why no gain? If you can take a quick reading of the color temps in a given location, can't you figure out how to gel or filter to compensate?
 
Well, one obvious thing is that with video, you typically have a low-budget color temperature meter right there...the monitor. It's instant feedback of light color. Instead of buying or renting a color temperature meter, perhaps you should just take your camera with you and hit the record button while you do your walk through.
 
I don't think I've seen a color temp meter on a video set yet.

As Barnes said, the monitor is your color temp meter.

The solution to your quandary, however, is to just carry a selection of gels with you to every shoot. Bring some 1/4, 1/2, and full CTO and CTB and MinusGreen and PlusGreen, and you'll be prepared for every situation.
 
powerdog said:
Forgive my ignorance, Walter, but why no gain? If you can take a quick reading of the color temps in a given location, can't you figure out how to gel or filter to compensate?
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You could but why bother? If you carry 1/4 half and full CTB sheets in your kit, you'll have everything you need to do color correction. Three channel color meters are designed for film emulsions where we can not alter the way light hits the three layers. But with a video camera we can, its called white balance. There are no secrets to how video will look. A simple white balance and look at a monitor tell us if we've got what we want. And more importantly is learning by eye what the potential is. A color meter is for when you can't see it live, but want to know what the possible outcomes will be later on film and to make sure you are putting the right color on the emulsion. Could you use a color meter, yes, but is not really going to tell you anything more than carrying around a few gels will. I say learn to see as a camera does and don't use tools not designed for video to confuse you more. Artists aren't into staring at brushes, but rather using them on a canvas. I say use the canvas, learn the art with your eyes and don't spend your day counting bristles.
 
For location scouting, a color temp meter is an excellent tool. You can determine what type flourescents are in the room and then decide how you will deal with them. You can check what the mercury vapor lights are doing. You can check what kind of tinting is on the glass windows.
If you want to do that with a camera, make sure you bring a large, properly calibrated field monitor on your location scout and drag that around to every room and set it up with your camera. You can't judge color accurately off the flipout screen of the DVX. The color temp meter is infinitely easier to use than dragging around a proper monitor to do color temp checking. It's also faster on set than playing gel games at every setup...try this, no this, oh how about this...I am amazed at the negativity and ignorance when somebody suggests doing something in a proper and professional manner. Ignore the naysayers and act like a real pro instead of a two bit hack with a bunch of cobbled together junk for equipment. Your clients will be impressed by an actual professional instead of mickey mouse hour.
 
Xort, I find your answer of great interest. The situation and solution you describe are exactly what I imagined, but everyone else really did respond negatively. It just seems to me that if you're trying to compensate for various color temperatures with a bunch of filters/gels, knowing exactly what you have in advance is helpful. I'll be curious to see other replies to your message!
 
Um...except in really annoying lighting situations*, if you white-balance your camera it doesn't matter what temp the light is.

Dan

*viz. sunlight hitting the actor from the left, tungsten from the right, with fluorescents shining down on his bald-spot.
 
xort said:
...I am amazed at the negativity and ignorance when somebody suggests doing something in a proper and professional manner. Ignore the naysayers and act like a real pro instead of a two bit hack with a bunch of cobbled together junk for equipment. Your clients will be impressed by an actual professional instead of mickey mouse hour.
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..wow, ..them is fightin' words.

im curious as to why you feel so strongly about this subject. nobody that i know of uses a color meter for video work. as walter pointed out it would be like inspecting the hairs on a paintbrush. sure theres nothing wrong with it. and nobody said there was ..they only said it was not normal, and not needed at all. which is true. ..but if you want to call every pro video DP out there a micky mouse 2 but hack for knowing what they are doing and not needing to waste time having a little machine tell them what to do.. then i guess your entitled to your opinion. but it is indeed an odd opinion IMHO. you've basically told him that if he runs around with a color meter everyone will think he is a pro, and somehow his current accompanying equipment package will magically be more professional.

but in all honesty .. thats like a plumber being more "pro" cause hes bringing a magnifying glass so that he can find exactly where the pipes are when he opens the wall.. ..while all the other plumbers look on and say.. "uh the pipe is right there."
 
so do you do a location scout with a dvx & a proper monitor? Or do you have such good eyes that you can easily judge the color temp of various mixed sources of light found in any given location? Can you tell what color green is being emmited by a bank of flo's 15' up in the air? Can you tell if there's going to be a need for 1/8 or 1/4 or 1/2 or full minus green? Just because most people don't or can't use one doesn't meen they aren't a valuable tool that should be used. Several people did come down quite hard on the idea of using a color temp meter. The fact is they make a great deal of sense on a location scout. And I do know many DP's who use them for this, no matter what format is being used.
"Just white balance" is a gross oversimpification of how to deal with mixed light sources.
 
i location scout by eye, and usually i take a little digital camera and occasionally a palmcorder with the white balance set on either of them to whatever i will have the dvx balanced to. 3200k or 5600k. - aka the little picture of an incadescent bulb, or the picture of the sun on the little consumer products.. i hardly ever shoot at any color temp aside from those main 2. this gives me a clear idea of the light color that ill be dealing with if i cant tell by eye. but in reality i really only use them for recording the setting so i can storyboard and previsualize. and yes i usually look at the lighting color temp by eye. in general my locations are chosen with lighting in mind for being able to shoot i either 3200k or 5600k, so i dont choose locations that need to have hours worth of time spent just to fix the existing lighting. and i also dont deal with gels too much. maybe a window here or there. but instead of trying to gel the occasional practical. i simply note what bulb type they are when scouting, and bring a bulb to replace it with if its a weird color. so i dont care what temp the flouros 15 feet up are, or what filter is neede to correct them.. they are going to be the color of the bulbs i put in there if they arent already what i want. changing bulbs is generally faster and easier than gelling anyway. and generally i only have to change a few practicals to lower wattage to keep them from blowing out. beause again i choose locations that the lighting works with.. not against. thats part of location scouting. i wouldnt choose a location that has lighting from hell unless i was up for the work to make it doable, and didnt have anything better.

i wouldnt simply white balance and call it a day either. i would "light balance" and change all the light to one temp or the other 32 or 56 . and set my camera accordingly.


all in all . again a color meter isnt a bad thing. but to most people its just not needed. if he or you want or need to use one, more power to you. my point was only that people who dont need to use one are every bit as professional, and IMHO a bit more advanced than someone who has to rely on one. if it blows your mind that i can discern rough color temp by eye or with a small digital imaging device when scouting.. well .. start practising.
 
Sure you could spend over a grand on a three-color color temperature meter, pay to have it calibrated every year and then carefully analyze a bank of fluorescents to try and determine the difference between 1/4 and 1/8th minus green...

or you could just look up the tube in your handy ACM or any of the other online resources and get information just about as accurate as your Gossen or Minolta.

You may know several DP's who already own color temperature meters, and thus would obviously take the tool out on a location scout, but the fact is that no matter how useful a color temperature meter is...it would be irresponsible for anyone here to recommend that someone go out and purchase a $1,000 tool that is of very little use to someone shooting video.

It’s the difference between a $1 notepad and a $1,500 tabletPC. Sure a tabletPC is a useful device, but it’s neither “negative” nor “ignorant” to recommend that someone save $1,499.00 when a pad of paper will do.

Finally, it is remarkably easy to record what the DVX is seeing. In fact, it's one of the primary functions of the camera, making it quite simple to record a location scout and then review the footage on a properly calibrated broadcast monitor. Sure it’s cumbersome, but its just as effective as doing it on-set.

"negativity and ignorance"

That comment speaks for itself.
 
Barnes, I have to ask about your second paragraph. "Just look up the tube..." How does that work if you have a couple of minutes for a pre-shoot look-see in a college science lab, and maybe a half hour for a shoot, you've got an impatient professor waiting each time, and the fluos are up in a fixture way beyond your reach. That's the situation I'll be in. What info would you gather, and how would you do it, in that initial visit of a few minutes?
 
If they are beyond your reach, you can use the color temp meter to help figure out what gels will be needed to make the tungsten or HMI or Kino or windows match.

I'd love to have a color temp meter.

I'm taking some battery operated fluo lights down to a DP in LA who has one, so I can figure out how to gel them properly.

-j
 
J, would you pass along here any comments that DP would like to share on the value of a color temp meter for video?
 
Quick thought on the half-hour science lab hypothetical. The biggest question is how much daylight might be coming through windows and to what extent can that be killed. Whether you will be shooting to daylight or flourescent will define the rest of the strategy. Add gels to whatever lights you bring. White balance, possibly with a warm card. Light and compose to field monitor. Ask Producer for approval and roll camera. If you only have half an hour, what other options are there?

It might be useful to frame this discussion in terms of the ideal versus the practical. A color meter is kind of like using a waveform monitor for exposure. Yes, it is the ideal way to work--but how often do you really use those on a location shoot when Zebras give you enough info to expose properly? In my experience, virtually never. It's a different story with film, where a light meter is critical and a colormeter is often necessary outside of the studio.

But if money is no object and you want it, go buy a colormeter and learn to use it correctly. It may impress the client on a walkthrough and probably won't hurt. But if you have to choose between spending a grand for a colormeter or a grand for a field monitor, towards an HMI, or financing your reel then really you shouldn't buy a colormeter. They just aren't used much in the practical world of video shooting. Go on other boards and ask around--you'll see that they just aren't used much. Even light meters aren't used much for video. But field monitors are crucial and should be a priority.

Last angle on this is that my rule for buying equipment is that it has to pay for itself. If it doesn't generate rentals, clients, or make my job easier--then I probably don't need it. A big part of professionalism is being efficient, profitable and not wasting time. Knowing what you need or don't need comes from experience. If you want to impress the client, make sure he has a nice monitor feed to see the image he's paying for.
 
powerdog said:
Barnes, I have to ask about your second paragraph. "Just look up the tube..." How does that work if you have a couple of minutes for a pre-shoot look-see in a college science lab, and maybe a half hour for a shoot, you've got an impatient professor waiting each time, and the fluos are up in a fixture way beyond your reach. That's the situation I'll be in. What info would you gather, and how would you do it, in that initial visit of a few minutes?
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Okay, lets follow the hypothetical. If you're under that much of a time constraint that you don't have an unhindered pre-pro walk through, then your only choice is to bring 1/4, 1/2 and full minus greens along with a selection of CTB and CTO for windows and lighting...those gels should be in your kit if you don't know what you're walking into.

It's a simple thing to pop up on a ladder and see if you're looking at a GE Regal White (Full minusgreen, 1 1/8th CTB for 5600k), a Sylvania Natural White (1/2 CTB only to meet 5600k), or a plain old Cool White (full minusgreen for 5600k). If you don't have the ability to get on a ladder and look, then you could check with the facilities team. Generally, most places will order and stock only one variety of tube, thus they should know what you're going to be looking at when you walk in the room.

But if I'm reading you correctly and you're facing a step in/step-out lighting check and a half-hour shoot...you really don't have time to consider gelling lights. White balance (or camera filtration) is your only real option.
 
powerdog said:
but everyone else really did respond negatively. !
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I know I didn't. Color meters are great for still film but really don't serve a purpose in video. The idea is to be an artists not a slave to technology. Professionals in video don't use color meters because we learn to use our eye. I can quote you accurate color temperatures from experience that a color meter cant give me. I can tell you the proper f-stop to shoot at by eye. That is what learning to be an artist is. Not walking around with a $600 meter because it gives you the mathematics. If you want to paint by numbers then you can. If you want to be an artist you need to learn to "see" light. Those of you who attended any of my seminars now understand what that means. That comes from experience. You will not get that experience relying on a meter to tell you what color temperatures are. And then what does it really tell you anyway? That a light is 4400k? So what. If you go by the textbook and apply the appropriate gel, you end up many times finding that you aren't happy. Someone mentioned not having the right gel. a Sheet of 1/4 and half CTB is all you need for cool lights 99% of the time. It's not light you have to carry rolls and rolls of gels. If you do, then you don't have enough experience yet and a color meter is only going to be more confusing. And let me mention that a video camera is NOT a three channel color meter. It is g-r, g-b which means that what color temperature is and what a camera sees aren't exactly the same. I try to teach folks about the art of lighting not about a bunch of numbers that don't give you the answer, only the formula. Color meters don't help you to become an artist because they only tell you a portion of the information you need to know. Call me negative but I don't know a professional at my level who uses one. I just got called to consult on ESPNs programs and to teach their lighting people some things. I'm thinking right now that if I walked in with a color meter they would scratch their heads and think I was nuts. Learn to "see" light not rely on mathematics to tell you what it 'should' be. That will separate you from those that never get any better at the craft.
 
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