Anyone own this?
- Thread starter Walter_Graff
- Start date
It's supposedly *Shipping* now according to the website. I'm sure Jarred / Barry / *Someone* will get ahold of one to test it thoroughly very soon. Looking forward to hearing feedback. Although I'm a little upset at the *It's gonna be $500* hype that was put out. YEAH.....500 for ONLY one piece of the puzzle. Like $1275 for everything you need in the *Indie Bundle*.....but oh well.....it beats 10k I guess!!
The introduction and marketing of this product has been questionable (borderline scandalous) thus far anyways. I hope to hear some *Positive* reviews of the product and the customer service very soon.
~reservoir~
The introduction and marketing of this product has been questionable (borderline scandalous) thus far anyways. I hope to hear some *Positive* reviews of the product and the customer service very soon.
~reservoir~
BLUESPIDER
DVXuser Ninja
Walter, you should PM redrock himself.
craigbowman
Veteran
In the queue
In the queue
I just ordered the $850 Indie bundle. I'll be testing a raft of FD primes, zooms and specialty macro closeup gear.
In the queue
I just ordered the $850 Indie bundle. I'll be testing a raft of FD primes, zooms and specialty macro closeup gear.
bvalente
DVXuser Sponsor
reservoir -
I'm a bit surprised at your comments, and you are inaccurate in several points - but perhaps we haven't communicated the details well.
First, I think we have been open and honest regarding pricing and what you get. If you have specific points where you feel we were misleading, please let us know asap so we can clear it up. That is certainly not our intent.
Here are the facts of the micro35:
1. We are taking orders for the product that will be shipped in 4-6 weeks from time of order. This is a ramp-up time. By mid-July we expect to be shipping at or near same day.
2. the micro35 adapter is not a 'prebuilt DIY kit' - is a professionally manufactured product.
3. the micro35 adapter itself is $500.
4. you require at least one lens mount - a nikon SLR lens mount is $75.
That is all that is *required* to be purchased from us.
Now, the micro35 is a rod-mounted system (you can see pics etc. on our website). You need a standard 15mm rod support system (60mm center-to-center). Since the micro35 needs to be aligned with your camera lens, you probably need to have a rod support system that is adjustable left-to-right (and possibly up-down). You can use your own rod system or ours - that's why we based ours on industry standards.
The bundles are a convenience people asked for, not a requirement. Some folks who want both the adapter and the rod system have asked for a combined price, so we have developed the bundles, and offer a discount on the total package.
The indie bundle is $850, not $1275. Our discounts to existing DIY Guide owners further push the price down to $765, which includes a micro35 adapter, rod support system, achromat, lens mount, and a few accessories. Price out just an achromat and see how it compares. I really don't feel this warrants a "man they cranked the price" response.
If you look at our order pages, you are not required to purchase a bundle - you can buy just the adapter and the lens mount if you so wish. It's simply another option.
Finally, I am meeting with Barry this month to have him review it. We have also contacted Jarred and a few others for objective third party reviews. We also showed it at Cinegear, where many people got to touch it and use it.
Your comments - constructive and otherwise - continue to help us do better. I always appreciate suggestions - however worded - on how we can improve. If you have questions, please let us know. Beyond that, we just want to get this into the hands of everyone who has wanted this capability but hasn't had the $$ toafford existing solutions
Thanks
Brian
I'm a bit surprised at your comments, and you are inaccurate in several points - but perhaps we haven't communicated the details well.
First, I think we have been open and honest regarding pricing and what you get. If you have specific points where you feel we were misleading, please let us know asap so we can clear it up. That is certainly not our intent.
Here are the facts of the micro35:
1. We are taking orders for the product that will be shipped in 4-6 weeks from time of order. This is a ramp-up time. By mid-July we expect to be shipping at or near same day.
2. the micro35 adapter is not a 'prebuilt DIY kit' - is a professionally manufactured product.
3. the micro35 adapter itself is $500.
4. you require at least one lens mount - a nikon SLR lens mount is $75.
That is all that is *required* to be purchased from us.
Now, the micro35 is a rod-mounted system (you can see pics etc. on our website). You need a standard 15mm rod support system (60mm center-to-center). Since the micro35 needs to be aligned with your camera lens, you probably need to have a rod support system that is adjustable left-to-right (and possibly up-down). You can use your own rod system or ours - that's why we based ours on industry standards.
The bundles are a convenience people asked for, not a requirement. Some folks who want both the adapter and the rod system have asked for a combined price, so we have developed the bundles, and offer a discount on the total package.
The indie bundle is $850, not $1275. Our discounts to existing DIY Guide owners further push the price down to $765, which includes a micro35 adapter, rod support system, achromat, lens mount, and a few accessories. Price out just an achromat and see how it compares. I really don't feel this warrants a "man they cranked the price" response.
If you look at our order pages, you are not required to purchase a bundle - you can buy just the adapter and the lens mount if you so wish. It's simply another option.
Finally, I am meeting with Barry this month to have him review it. We have also contacted Jarred and a few others for objective third party reviews. We also showed it at Cinegear, where many people got to touch it and use it.
Your comments - constructive and otherwise - continue to help us do better. I always appreciate suggestions - however worded - on how we can improve. If you have questions, please let us know. Beyond that, we just want to get this into the hands of everyone who has wanted this capability but hasn't had the $$ toafford existing solutions
Thanks
Brian
Walter_Graff
Carbonite Member
I for one am excited that another entry into the market is here. I think these adapters should be mandatory with DV cameras as they make an image look 100 times better. Sure you loose a stop plus but for indy features the optics this provides blows away any stock lens situation out there. I'm surprised more folks at this level don't see how incredibly better this system is than just the crappy lens that came with your camera. It would be my first choice as an accessory for a DV camera.
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
Walter_Graff said:
Mostly because many of us don't know any better Walter. I moved up to the DVX from a zr-20, which I believe is 1/4" single chip camera. Compared to that, my DVX looks like Cinemascope to me.
Of course, after almost a year of shooting with it, and getting a better knowledge of it's limitations, I would be interested in a product like this.
Now for the dumb question. What does the adapter give you? I get the idea of interchageable lenses (which otherwise is one of the few advantages of the xl-2 over the DVX, no?) which can give you more control over DOF, and the ability for example to use a zoom lens. BUt why would someone pay 10 grand for that? I'm not talking about this version, but the impression that I get is that up til now these things are very pricey. Why not buy an xl-2? (no blasphemy intended)
yeah.. the only thing that these adaptors provide is 35mm DOF. and the ability to use 35mm still or video or cine lenses pending the mount you put on it. but in any situation with these adaptors the optical quality always goes down. never up. and optical resolution is lost no matter how you slice the pie.. becuase that "crappy lense that came with your camera" is still there(with the exception of the canon cameras, but the relay lense required in that case is still not at panavision quality or anything).. only it now has a peice of ground glass in front of it, as well as additional optics of varying quality .. i mean who really puts cine lenses on a 35mm adaptor? if you had the money to buy or rent those lenses we wouldnt be using a DV cam.. most people use moderatley decent 35mm still lenses.
now for SD it softens it up and makes it more film like for small format display.. but its too soft for the big screen IMHO. and many others opinion as well. but when dealing with HD even after the softening.. i would assume it would still hold up on the big screen or larger format viewing pretty well . i really love the things, but they are not miracle workers. they do have thier downsides.. although i believe the upsides can vastly outweigh the downs if the unit is of any resapectable quality.
now for SD it softens it up and makes it more film like for small format display.. but its too soft for the big screen IMHO. and many others opinion as well. but when dealing with HD even after the softening.. i would assume it would still hold up on the big screen or larger format viewing pretty well . i really love the things, but they are not miracle workers. they do have thier downsides.. although i believe the upsides can vastly outweigh the downs if the unit is of any resapectable quality.
Walter_Graff
Carbonite Member
Actually using the right lenses optics goes up dramatically. These DV cameras come with cheap lenses. Lenses are ALL the difference in video. That is the advantage plus the DOF that makes it look like film. yes you could buy the canon and that is the advantage canon has over a DVX100. Most don't understand it because you are right don't have experience with it. We did extensive chart testing last year with some DV cameras and the better lenses made all the difference in the world.
bvalente
DVXuser Sponsor
vjbrennan - I personally really like the 35mm DOF (especially since I can't afford productions shot on film), but I don't think it's worth $10,000 (especially since I paid around $4,000 for my DVX). That's why I think the micro35 is a great inexpensive alternative.
Reservoir - peace. Next time you have a concern or question, please just ask
Reservoir - peace. Next time you have a concern or question, please just ask
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
If the image quality is markedly better, as Walter says, and you get that great DOF, then the 850 or so seems well worth it. Especially if you have access to good lenses already.
bvalente said:
Apologies, I only typed that because many months ago (years?) i read about the project beginning and the first prototype was less and people were talking about the equipment costing less. The final product you have now looks much more developed. Its a great product ! everyone should buy it, its definitely the best value on the market!
Barry_Green
Moderator
It is impossible to get higher-resolution, better-optics by placing something like a mini35 or micro35 in front of your lens. As IAL pointed out, the stock camera lens is still there. Anything additional (such as a piece of ground glass) is going to have some negative impact on your image. That's unavoidable. Mounting a $50,000 lens to a mini35, and putting that combination in front of a DVX, is not going to yield a sharper image than you would get from just the DVX. The combination will change the look of your footage, but it certainly won't make it sharper.Walter_Graff said:
The XL2 does have a definite advantage in this area -- while it still requires an additional lens, it can be a much simpler relay lens that can convey the image from the ground glass to the CCDs cleaner than a multi-element varifocal or zoom lens, such as the DVX or FX1 would employ.
Can you clarify some details? Because unless I misunderstand you, what you are saying is impossible. Presumably you are talking about mounting different, better-quality lenses to a variety of DV cameras. The only way to do so would be through a mini35, or on an XL2. With an XL2, yes it's possible to directly adapt a better lens, and get better image quality, although with likely a telephoto effect.
But you said "some DV cameras", which implies more than one type -- which means other than an XL2. Meaning, PD150/PD170, DVX, etc. And with those cameras, mounting a mini35 in front of the lens will never, under any circumstances, ever, give you a "sharper" image than not having the mini35 installed -- it simply cannot be. You can pick up some properties of the lens, such as its color and some of its contrast, but you cannot gain resolution when the camera's stock lens is still in place.
On a DVX or PD150 or FX1 or any fixed-lens camera, the mini35/micro35/G35 can all add wonderful texture and depth of field to your footage, but it will be softer. And the statement you made was that you were shooting charts, which would have nothing to do with DOF. So presumably you're talking about resolution, and it is impossible to gain more resolution on a fixed-lens camera by adding a piece of ground glass in front of the lens, that the camera's existing lens must then shoot through.
BLUESPIDER
DVXuser Ninja
Barry_Green said:
My thoughts exactally and softer is not what I want when I plan on transfering this to 35mm. I need my image to be as sharp as I can get it. The micro35 is a great product but if you consider bumping the footage to 35mm then you may want to reconsider. The footage being a bit soft is where it gets me but I would definetly consider buying one for my TV projects.
Barry_Green
Moderator
The mini35 is just plain gorgeous for straight-to-TV projects, and the buzz about it is well deserved, and hopefully the finished micro35 and G35 products will bring that same level of beautiful image quality at a much more affordable price.
But, I would also be a little concerned about softness if preserving a film blowup option is a major concern.
However, affordable HD may alleviate that -- perhaps enough resolution gets through the GG to make for plenty sharp 35mm blowups? I will be testing that.
But, I would also be a little concerned about softness if preserving a film blowup option is a major concern.
However, affordable HD may alleviate that -- perhaps enough resolution gets through the GG to make for plenty sharp 35mm blowups? I will be testing that.
BLUESPIDER
DVXuser Ninja
Barry_Green said:
WORD!
and yes, afforable HD is what I'm waiting on.....
Walter_Graff
Carbonite Member
Barry in a political way I was trying to talk about the Canon camera while not putting down the DVX100 hence the use of the word "some", but now that you've opened up the can of worms I can tell you that an adaptor with a quality lens placed on an XL2 blows away any picture one could ever make with a DVX100. Its one of the reasons why many independent filmmakers use the Canon over the Panasonic. Having the ability to take the less than stellar lens off the camera to replace it with a much higher quality lens does indeed offer a better MTF and as a result a better quality picture. I know a few folks have figured out how to remove the lens from their DVX100 and have created their own adapters with great success to. There is a reason why we use upwards of $250,000 lenses in professional video. The picture performance of any camera is largely predetermined by the optical image the lens presents to the camera's CCDs. Lenses are the factor that gives a camera contrast, color reproduction, and picture sharpness and its the camera that translates these qualities to the picture you see on a monitor. When designing lenses manufactures attempt to create an MTF(modulation transfer function) that remains as constant as possible across the entire zoom ratio of a lens. It is a dunting task to do so. No adding a Mini 35 adapter to the front of a cheap mass produced lens does not increase the quality of a picture, but adding better quality lenses to a camera does. THe combination of better quality lenses and adapters have a synergistic effect when they are both designed properly. Larry Thorpe has written a number of white papers for Canon about lenses and how their qulaity can differ greatly. I attend his seminar a few months ago where some deomonstrations where shown. Anyone interested in seeing just how important a lens is to a cameras ability can read here: http://www.usa.canon.com/html/industrial_bctv/whitepapers.shtml
That said, even using an adapter with a permanently mounted lens yields a far more cinematic picture than just the camera alone on any of these cameras as I can see. And its all about perception more than anything else with your eye.
That said, even using an adapter with a permanently mounted lens yields a far more cinematic picture than just the camera alone on any of these cameras as I can see. And its all about perception more than anything else with your eye.
Here is an absolute fact: You're not going to get improved image quality by attaching a Primo spherical prime lens to the front of a Micro35 or Mini35. Up to the front surface of the ground glass, you've got just what you think you would - the resolving, color rendition and luminating quality of the best glass in the business. Nikon and Canon stills glass is nice too, but I again prefer the idea of PL mount support for spherical cinema glass.
Once you get to the gg, things go quickly downhill from there. The Micro35 gg is a single-sided rotating element, which encourages refraction and aberration just like conventional rear-painted mirrors. Stuff bounces around within the element itself, taking the sharpness and definition down regardless of how light-tight the housing around it is. Optical-quality prisms aren't perfect either, but the tolerances for focusing light surface-to-surface are very tight.
The stock Leica glass, and all its very positive attributes, shortcomings and limitations play into what you get in the end. I've used Cooke, Zeiss, Angeneuix and Panavision glass on my shoots, so I feel well-qualified to make a judgement on the Leica lens. Again, I am by no way complaining about the stock glass on my 100a - however, it isn't perfect. We all know the challenges, from slop at the wide end to backfocus issues effectively built-in by Panasonic proper.
The DOF adapters add even more elements and that always stops you down and introduces multiple planes where you can showcase dust, grime, hair and other image-degradation contaminants.
I haven't gotten word on where I am in the line of people waiting for pre-assembled Micro35 units, but I'm curious to see what I can get with the included gg. On several occassions, I've emailed the upstart with credit card in hand and had no response...
Footage so far has been all over the map, with moody dark interiors, well-illuminated foreground subjects framed against dark backgrounds with tangible vignetting around the frame edges and some horse footage from the R&D days that still outshines anything I've seen since. Dark narrative is fun to look at, but I haven't seen anything [yet] where I can scrutinize the product with any certainty.
I believe the Micro35 will perform best when in the hands of someone who knows when not to use it. I have little trouble achieving DOF during my documentary shoots, even in high-value setups, though I fantasize about placing the camera where I want it instead of having DOF dictate placement. "See that little black spec over there? That's the camera - just kinda look in that direction, okay?" The DOF adapter certainly solves this problem, and I'm confident that it will do it well.
If the unit was in my hands today, I'd roll two tapes worth of comprehensive field tests for Micro35 using typical lighting set-ups when appropriate. In short, I'm waiting to see some real footage from Redrock Micro, and would like to be a contributor of same if possible.
On the matter of price, I too initially expected a $500 pricepoint for all elements less glass based on the thread here some months ago. Looking at the build quality on what the product has become makes it a bargain at $850 if all I have to add is my mattebox and lenses. It remains to be seen and heard if a PL mount will be available and I certainly don't expect one to be included in an $850 product!
Continuing to stand-by...
e
Once you get to the gg, things go quickly downhill from there. The Micro35 gg is a single-sided rotating element, which encourages refraction and aberration just like conventional rear-painted mirrors. Stuff bounces around within the element itself, taking the sharpness and definition down regardless of how light-tight the housing around it is. Optical-quality prisms aren't perfect either, but the tolerances for focusing light surface-to-surface are very tight.
The stock Leica glass, and all its very positive attributes, shortcomings and limitations play into what you get in the end. I've used Cooke, Zeiss, Angeneuix and Panavision glass on my shoots, so I feel well-qualified to make a judgement on the Leica lens. Again, I am by no way complaining about the stock glass on my 100a - however, it isn't perfect. We all know the challenges, from slop at the wide end to backfocus issues effectively built-in by Panasonic proper.
The DOF adapters add even more elements and that always stops you down and introduces multiple planes where you can showcase dust, grime, hair and other image-degradation contaminants.
I haven't gotten word on where I am in the line of people waiting for pre-assembled Micro35 units, but I'm curious to see what I can get with the included gg. On several occassions, I've emailed the upstart with credit card in hand and had no response...
Footage so far has been all over the map, with moody dark interiors, well-illuminated foreground subjects framed against dark backgrounds with tangible vignetting around the frame edges and some horse footage from the R&D days that still outshines anything I've seen since. Dark narrative is fun to look at, but I haven't seen anything [yet] where I can scrutinize the product with any certainty.
I believe the Micro35 will perform best when in the hands of someone who knows when not to use it. I have little trouble achieving DOF during my documentary shoots, even in high-value setups, though I fantasize about placing the camera where I want it instead of having DOF dictate placement. "See that little black spec over there? That's the camera - just kinda look in that direction, okay?" The DOF adapter certainly solves this problem, and I'm confident that it will do it well.
If the unit was in my hands today, I'd roll two tapes worth of comprehensive field tests for Micro35 using typical lighting set-ups when appropriate. In short, I'm waiting to see some real footage from Redrock Micro, and would like to be a contributor of same if possible.
On the matter of price, I too initially expected a $500 pricepoint for all elements less glass based on the thread here some months ago. Looking at the build quality on what the product has become makes it a bargain at $850 if all I have to add is my mattebox and lenses. It remains to be seen and heard if a PL mount will be available and I certainly don't expect one to be included in an $850 product!
Continuing to stand-by...
e